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The_Paladin Jun 11, 2015

It's not a Castlevania game nor a Konami one.  It's just made in the same style with most of the same people.

TerraEpon Jun 12, 2015

It's not a sequel, any more than Mighty No. 9 or Star Citizen or Yuka-Laylee are.

Jodo Kast Jun 12, 2015

The_Paladin wrote:

It's not a Castlevania game nor a Konami one.  It's just made in the same style with most of the same people.

TerraEpon wrote:

It's not a sequel, any more than Mighty No. 9 or Star Citizen or Yuka-Laylee are.

I'm still confused as to what this is. There's some bigger trend here that I don't understand.

Is this possible because of the phenomenon of "kickstarter"? Maybe I need this explained first: If kickstarter did not exist, then how would IGA get this game made?

avatar! Jun 12, 2015

Jodo Kast wrote:
The_Paladin wrote:

It's not a Castlevania game nor a Konami one.  It's just made in the same style with most of the same people.

TerraEpon wrote:

It's not a sequel, any more than Mighty No. 9 or Star Citizen or Yuka-Laylee are.

I'm still confused as to what this is. There's some bigger trend here that I don't understand.

Is this possible because of the phenomenon of "kickstarter"? Maybe I need this explained first: If kickstarter did not exist, then how would IGA get this game made?

If kickstarter did not exist it appears that this game would not be made. As for saying "it's not a Castlevania sequel" that may be technically correct. However, it's a sequel in everything but name, so I think it's disingenuous to say it's not a sequel when in reality it is.

Razakin Jun 12, 2015

Jodo Kast wrote:

Is this possible because of the phenomenon of "kickstarter"? Maybe I need this explained first: If kickstarter did not exist, then how would IGA get this game made?

He probably wouldn't, because publishers wouldn't drop money. Like what did happen with Wasteland 2 and other game KS projects.

From Gamasutra's interview:
"KI: All I can say right now is that after over a year of talking with just about every publisher out there, I was able to secure funding for about 90 percent of the game with the condition that I prove the market still wants an Igavania game. Kickstarter proved to be a great solution, as it would (hopefully) show that people still want an Igavania game while simultaneously providing funds for the core game."

Jodo Kast Jun 12, 2015

I had thought that kickstarter was for neophytes, but when I saw that Bloodstained has lots of people with credentials, I was very confused. I wasn't aware that publishers had to be convinced that the market wants this type of game. I have watched people play games like Call of Duty, Skyrim, Mass Effect, Borderlands and Assassin's Creed and I had trouble paying attention, since they were so boring and didn't contain anything even slightly resembling video game music. I truly don't understand the appeal of current popular games and I had no idea they were undermining the market in such a way that good games can't get funding. With the way things are going in the gaming world, even a true sequel to Super Metroid would probably do poorly.

Ashley Winchester Jun 12, 2015

Jodo Kast wrote:

I had thought that kickstarter was for neophytes, but when I saw that Bloodstained has lots of people with credentials, I was very confused. I wasn't aware that publishers had to be convinced that the market wants this type of game. I have watched people play games like Call of Duty, Skyrim, Mass Effect, Borderlands and Assassin's Creed and I had trouble paying attention, since they were so boring and didn't contain anything even slightly resembling video game music. I truly don't understand the appeal of current popular games and I had no idea they were undermining the market in such a way that good games can't get funding. With the way things are going in the gaming world, even a true sequel to Super Metroid would probably do poorly.

While I agree with your overall view of current games from popular genres/franchises (and the current state of VGM) I think you'd have to be living under a rock to not understand why gaming (and why the ideas for games) is in such a deadlocked state right now.

Games have kind of gotten to the point where it's simply to costly to fail. Think about it. In the NES days a complete joke of a company like LJN could keep putting out crap because 1) development costs were much lower and you didn't need 100+ people to make a game and 2) there was no internet so word of mouth didn't spread like wildfire. Nowadays one bad or even mediocre game can completely bankrupt a company which is why companies (and their stockholders) don't want to take ANY KIND of risk, and why you won't see all the creativity you say back in say the PlayStation One library.

For example, take a look at Sonic Boom. Sonic Boom was universally panned by the media but it still sold what most would consider to be good numbers based on the name sake alone but that wasn't enough to keep Sega from retreating from the console market when it really needed to sell A LOT more copies than it did.

Don't want to be a naysayer, or talk go as far as saying there's going to be a crash, but video games (or developers) have become a victim of their growing medium. Something has got to, and will, give eventually.

absuplendous Jun 13, 2015

Jodo Kast wrote:

I had thought that kickstarter was for neophytes, but when I saw that Bloodstained has lots of people with credentials, I was very confused. I wasn't aware that publishers had to be convinced that the market wants this type of game.

These people with credentials no longer have the financial backing of their former publishers, so they have to raise it themselves. It's not a matter of, say, demonstrating to Konami that there's $5.5 million worth of consumer demand in order to get the green light from them; the $5.5 million is being raised to fund production, because Konami (or any other publisher) isn't funding the project anymore.

Call me a cynic, but I honestly wonder if there would be 65,000 consumers so eagerly throwing their cash at the producers if the game was called Castlevania, or Banjo-Kazooie, or even Megaman 11. There's always a romanticization of backing the underdog, and I've heard and read a lot of people express titillation over funding these games in part to "stick it to the companies that abandoned these devs/their fans," some going so far as to declare allegiance to the "spiritual successors" and considering their once-beloved franchises/publishers "dead to me." Silly stuff if you ask me; in any case, though, this does seem like the only way these types of made are getting off the ground these days.

GoldfishX Jun 13, 2015

What I have to wonder is how do all the people that never got to see the original IP's feel about them. I think a lot of people that grew up on these games in their prime have entered the workforce and have established a degree of disposable income. Something like this provides the perfect trigger to unload some of that extra cash. But someone who never played original Megaman and maybe rented X7 would likely be wondering what the big deal is.

At least for Mighty Number 9, my social media was blowing up from old Megaman fans showing hype at getting the game funded because of the people involved (not so much wanting to punch Capcom in the mouth, but that might have been an underlying theme). I want to say the Inafune Kickstarter inspired the other two, but how many times this will work is anyone's guess.

Me personally, I wouldn't give a dime to any of these. With Inafune and Iga at their respective companies, both the original IP's were treated like crap for years. The level of quality overall just fluctuated and I'm willing to accept their demise, without NEEDING a quasi-revival. (I never felt anything towards the Rare platformers)

Ashley Winchester Jun 13, 2015 (edited Jun 13, 2015)

GoldfishX wrote:

Me personally, I wouldn't give a dime to any of these. With Inafune and Iga at their respective companies, both the original IP's were treated like crap for years. The level of quality overall just fluctuated and I'm willing to accept their demise, without NEEDING a quasi-revival. (I never felt anything towards the Rare platformers)

Actually same here. I'm probably the only person that's okay with Mega Man being shelved for the time being because Capcom wasn't really doing a bang up job with it. As for Metroidvania, I'm more interested in Bloodstained than MNo9 but there were many indie games picking up and filling that void,

Jodo Kast Jun 13, 2015 (edited Jun 13, 2015)

Ashley Winchester wrote:

While I agree with your overall view of current games from popular genres/franchises (and the current state of VGM) I think you'd have to be living under a rock to not understand why gaming (and why the ideas for games) is in such a deadlocked state right now.

I stopped playing video games in 2005 and only occasionally watched someone else play games on systems released after 2005. I didn't actively follow any games or any developments in the industry. It's like time stopped for me. This is why it's shocking to me that a game similar to Symphony of the Night would need "proof" in order to be developed. After checking out the Bloodstained kickstarter, I checked out the Yooka-Laylee kickstarter. Another shock. Banjo Kazooie was at the absolute pinnacle of perfection in gaming in 1998. I couldn't believe, at the time, how something could be so fun.

I backed the Bloodstained kickstarter at $100 because I agree with that type of game. It's what I want. I'm probably going to back the Yooka-Laylee kickstarter, because I want that as well. If a kickstarter for Blast Corps 2 pops up, then I will certainly back that, since the original was somehow above the pinnacle of perfection. Blast Corps was one of the few games I played through twice.

Ashley Winchester Jun 13, 2015

Jodo Kast wrote:
Ashley Winchester wrote:

While I agree with your overall view of current games from popular genres/franchises (and the current state of VGM) I think you'd have to be living under a rock to not understand why gaming (and why the ideas for games) is in such a deadlocked state right now.

I stopped playing video games in 2005 and only occasionally watched someone else play games on systems released after 2005.

I didn't stop playing games around 2005, but I did stop playing newer games around this time...so i don't think you and I are very different in this regard. Probably the main difference is I kind of kept/keep tabs on the newer stuff even though I did't have much a interest so I could at least discuss current stuff with others who were.

However, I didn't mean to be rude or anything above... I kind of though the problems that are holding the industry were pretty well known at this point. It's actually a pretty interesting situation.

avatar! Jun 13, 2015

The Witcher 3, Skyrim, and Divinity Original Sin are all proof that great games are still made. Oh, and the music IS fantastic too. That said, I do agree that a variety of games is important. I've said it before, and I still think that kickstarter has opened up what may be a new golden age of gaming. As Ashley said, to produce the next AAA title takes so much money, that it can bankrupt a company. On the other hand, a company such as Larian can raise money through kickstarter to produce a game such as Divinity Original Sin (which had rave reviews, even though it is arguably not a AAA game, although you would be hard-pressed to tell). Then they release the game, get rave reviews, sell many, and then release an updated version they way they had always envisioned it. I know that may seem wrong at first "hey, why didn't they just release it the way they had wanted in the first place?" and the answer is: no money. After raising enough revenue, Larian will release an enhanced version of Divinity Original Sin for the PS4, Xbox, and PC. Also, anyone that already purchased Divinity Original Sin will get the enhanced version for FREE! Awesome. Also, much smaller projects such as Lords of Xulima (also received excellent reviews) could only be funded through kickstarter. In the end, the new Castlevania (call it what you will, it's Castlevania in everything but name) raised over $5.5 million! This puts it in the top 10 most funded kickstarter campaigns ever, as well as the most highly funded game ever. I think this also sends a message to the industry as a whole, that people want such games. Maybe Konami, Capcom, and other companies will get their act together.

Zorbfish Jun 13, 2015

avatar! wrote:

I think this also sends a message to the industry as a whole, that people want such games. Maybe Konami, Capcom, and other companies will get their act together.

It may send a message, but it more than likely will fall on deaf ears. Most publishers seem to be at the mercy of their shareholders, because now gaming is just normal business, so they have to chase growth instead of what their consumer audience may actually want.

I also wonder if this had just been a new Castlevania game whether it would have been successful in the market. Seems like a lot of the bridge burning Konami has done in the past few years bubbled up into pledges for this project. I know I pledged partly for that reason.

I hope this doesn't set a dangerous precedent, though. Each of these nostalgia reboots have been funded largely on name recognition and history, no upfront demo/resources. The most we saw of Bloodstained over this past month was a short video of Iga playing a tech demo with a few of the concept art pieces animated. I just don't want to see creators thinking they can break out on their own and it will rain money without any effort put forth first.

Ashley Winchester Jun 13, 2015

avatar! wrote:

I think this also sends a message to the industry as a whole, that people want such games. Maybe Konami, Capcom, and other companies will get their act together.

To be honest I wouldn't expect this of Konami. Didn't they recently say they wanted to go mobile so they can raid people's wallets with microtransactions because they now have such a huge hard-on for gambling? I honestly see MGSV as their last AAA ha-rah and the company we loved will be gone after that...

...and Capcom just recently made me angry with the Mega Man Legacy collection. Really, we're going to act like repackaging the first six games in the franchise is anything special? Screw them.

GoldfishX Jun 13, 2015

I think the Japanese companies (and the Japanese buyers) are too far gone at this point. And really, I blame them for the mess they made. Again, the IP's we're discussing were mismanaged for years. Castlevania never figured out how to translate effectively to a console past the PS1. Megaman suffered an identity crisis, with varying degrees of success. It's not like we went through an extended period of time with AAA-quality titles from these franchises in recent memory.

absuplendous Jun 14, 2015

Ashley Winchester wrote:

...and Capcom just recently made me angry with the Mega Man Legacy collection. Really, we're going to act like repackaging the first six games in the franchise is anything special? Screw them.

In and of itself, repackaging Megaman 1-6 isn't all that special. The Legacy Collection is apparently being made by rebuilding the first six games using a new "Eclipse" engine. In addition to all the hemming and hawing over whether or not these will/can be accurate reproductions, there's a lot of speculation as to whether or not this serves as a trial run of the engine, to be used to create new games in the future. That's an intriguing prospect, but if it means a future Megaman 11 is another NES-style throwback, no thanks; I've had my fill. I want the series to move forward, not remain wading in its origins (even though the series had moved forward prior to 9).

In any case, I don't plan on buying the collection. It's not merely a matter of "it's doesn't have 1-10, MM&B, the Game Boy games, and the arcade games!"--$2.50 per game is a pretty good deal, and I wouldn't begrudge Capcom for releasing another compilation later on to complement this one. The problem is that these games have been available on the past three console generations in addition to the current Nintendo generation and the NES (albeit with varying quality); I simply don't need any more copies. Not even with "HD Flair," which as far as anyone can tell is just a meaningless buzzword.

avatar! Jun 14, 2015

absuplendous wrote:

In and of itself, repackaging Megaman 1-6 isn't all that special. The Legacy Collection is apparently being made by rebuilding the first six games using a new "Eclipse" engine.

Hmmm, a powerful engine... for NES games. Somehow, I'm not particularly impressed...

rein Jun 16, 2015

I felt a twinge of excitement upon learning of Shenmue 3, but that has quickly given way to deep apprehension.  For one thing, the trailer suggests that Suzuki is rejecting the last 14 years of evolution in game design and preserving the cumbersome and tedious gameplay and stilted characterizations of old Shenmue.  For another, a project of this scope is not an appropriate subject for crowdfunding.  No matter how many millions are raised, Shenmue III is destined to run out of money early in development or transform into some episodic nonsense, with backers receiving only the first episode.

avatar! Jun 16, 2015

I do think kickstarter is great of course, but I also get a kick when projects such as Shenmue have a big blurg "Why Kickstarter?" and then they go very philosophical. Really, if they were honest wouldn't they just say:

"Oh hey, we just saw IGA pull $5.5 million out of a hat. Why the hell can't we have some of that pie?!"

Ashley Winchester Jun 16, 2015

rein wrote:

I felt a twinge of excitement upon learning of Shenmue 3, but that has quickly given way to deep apprehension.  For one thing, the trailer suggests that Suzuki is rejecting the last 14 years of evolution in game design and preserving the cumbersome and tedious gameplay and stilted characterizations of old Shenmue.  For another, a project of this scope is not an appropriate subject for crowdfunding.  No matter how many millions are raised, Shenmue III is destined to run out of money early in development or transform into some episodic nonsense, with backers receiving only the first episode.

Not really interested in Shenmue 3 myself... but I can't help but share your apprehension.

However, given the fanbase for Shenmue you could probably keep the cumbersome and tedious gameplay and stilted characterizations of old the old games and get away with it. Probably not with the press though...

Jay Jun 16, 2015

A modern Shenmue made to the highest standard of modern gaming and yet with the ideals and ambition of the originals was never ever going to happen. But a Shenmue that lives up to the first two, that doesn't have to reach far beyond them but can still deliver a gorgeous experience is absolutely doable. And that's why I suspect it isn't a project of the scope I think you want.

But for me, I'm sold and I backed instantly and I'm already looking forward to it. Especially looking forward to the soundtrack. Expecting to be firing up the game some time in the early 2020s.

avatar! Jun 16, 2015

Jay wrote:

A modern Shenmue made to the highest standard of modern gaming and yet with the ideals and ambition of the originals was never ever going to happen. But a Shenmue that lives up to the first two, that doesn't have to reach far beyond them but can still deliver a gorgeous experience is absolutely doable. And that's why I suspect it isn't a project of the scope I think you want.

But for me, I'm sold and I backed instantly and I'm already looking forward to it. Especially looking forward to the soundtrack. Expecting to be firing up the game some time in the early 2020s.

So, did you opt for the $10,000 jacket, or the dinner party?

XLord007 Jun 17, 2015

Shenmue III will cost far more than $2 million to develop, and Sony is paying for the rest. The whole point of the Kickstarter is marketing and pre-sales.

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