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Qui-Gon Joe Jun 7, 2011

I don't know if this is going to get a heck of a lot of coverage elsewhere, so I figure I'll put it here so that you guys who might be interested will see it.  In the Nintendo press conference this morning, one of the first announcements was that there is going to be a series of symphony concerts in the fall for the 25th anniversary of Zelda in the U.S., Japan, and Europe.  It was ALSO announced that Ocarina of Time 3D is getting a soundtrack disc through Club Nintendo for people who register the game early on (would be worth it just for that new orchestra track...).  Then there will be a CD release to go with the fall concerts of live orchestra music.

Best news of E3 so far for me, maybe?

Herrkotowski Jun 7, 2011 (edited Jun 7, 2011)

If it's only Club Nintendo obtainable, I can only shake my head in disappointment at Nintendo, especially the orchestral CD based on the concerts. Of course, I only expect this because that's how Nintendo has been doing it for years now...

Depending on where the concerts are held in the US, I may try to attend one. I'm presuming L.A. for the West Coast and NYC for the East Coast, but probably nothing more than that.

XLord007 Jun 7, 2011

Qui-Gon Joe wrote:

Best news of E3 so far for me, maybe?

Yes, this was one of the few pieces of good news from the Nintendo conference.  Surprised to see Nintendo feature game music so prominently.

Qui-Gon Joe Jun 7, 2011

Herrkotowski wrote:

If it's only Club Nintendo obtainable, I can only shake my head in disappointment at Nintendo, especially the orchestral CD based on the concerts.

The OoT CD is Club Nintendo, but they didn't say anything about the concert CD indicating one way or the other.  Here's hoping for a release that you can just BUY.

XLord007 Jun 7, 2011 (edited Jun 7, 2011)

Qui-Gon Joe wrote:
Herrkotowski wrote:

If it's only Club Nintendo obtainable, I can only shake my head in disappointment at Nintendo, especially the orchestral CD based on the concerts.

The OoT CD is Club Nintendo, but they didn't say anything about the concert CD indicating one way or the other.  Here's hoping for a release that you can just BUY.

That'd be nice, but the way they said it be would be released around the same time as Skyward Sword made it sound like it might be a pre-order bonus for Skyward Sword or another Club Nintendo thing.  GameStop should be happy about this stuff.  I was going to order Ocarina from Amazon to save money, but in order to get it on Sunday the 19th, I'll need to get it from a normal retailer.

Qui-Gon Joe Jun 7, 2011

XLord007 wrote:

I was going to order Ocarina from Amazon to save money, but in order to get it on Sunday the 19th, I'll need to get it from a normal retailer.

Does this have anything to do with the CD, or do you just want the game on release day?  I'm not seeing any details about the soundtrack on the Club Nintendo site other than "Offer coming soon."

XLord007 Jun 7, 2011

Qui-Gon Joe wrote:
XLord007 wrote:

I was going to order Ocarina from Amazon to save money, but in order to get it on Sunday the 19th, I'll need to get it from a normal retailer.

Does this have anything to do with the CD, or do you just want the game on release day?  I'm not seeing any details about the soundtrack on the Club Nintendo site other than "Offer coming soon."

It has everything to do with the CD.  At the conference, they said the CD would only go to the first X number of people who register the game with Club Nintendo.

the_miker Jun 8, 2011

No interest in the Ocarina of Time 3D soundtrack but if the orchestra CD is available to purchase, I'll definitely buy one.  If it's a Club Nintendo only thing, ehh.. probably not worth the hassle.

Kenology Jun 8, 2011 (edited Jun 8, 2011)

Qui-Gon Joe wrote:
XLord007 wrote:

I was going to order Ocarina from Amazon to save money, but in order to get it on Sunday the 19th, I'll need to get it from a normal retailer.

Does this have anything to do with the CD, or do you just want the game on release day?  I'm not seeing any details about the soundtrack on the Club Nintendo site other than "Offer coming soon."

It's only 50 tracks, so 32 of the total 82 songs from the 1998 original OST is getting the boot.

Also, Yokota mentioned in his Iwata Asks interview that he arranged a special medley for use in the game for orchestra.  This track has just been discovered and LEAKED - listen at your own risk!

I'm super psyched for the Zelda concert.  I'm hoping it'll be somewhere in the mid-atlantic so I can get to it easily.

EDIT:  Found this on Nintendo's official site which mentions what I've already said above and a few more tidbits:

- 50 tracks from the game, many never before released.
- 1 fully orchestrated medley specially recorded for the soundtrack.
- Liner notes include new character illustrations created for the Nintendo 3DS release, and a special message from Mr. Miyamoto and Mr. Kondo.

Unreleased tracks, huh?

Adam Corn Jun 10, 2011

I sure hope they've found a way to include Jonne Valtonen's Zelda symphonic poem from Symphonic Legends in the program for these new concerts.  I'd already been thinking how great it would be for people around the world to have the chance to hear it live... what a waste if they miss this opportunity to do so.

Actually, mimicking the two Legends concerts altogether and including music from other Nintendo properties would have made a lot more sense IMO.  Hopefully the arrangers will be up to making a full program's worth of quality Zelda music.

Kenology Jun 10, 2011

I don't know Adam... I hope they stay far away from Valtonen's arrangements.  He butchered pretty much every piece of music from Zelda he touched in Symphonic Legends.  I've only ever been impressed with just a few Zelda orchestral arrangements anyways to be quite honest though.

But I think Yokota will do a masterful job arranging and orchestrating - I'm pretty sure he'll be deeply involved.

Adam Corn Jun 11, 2011 (edited Jun 11, 2011)

Also from the Iwata Asks interview with Kondo and Yokota, regarding the Ocarina of Time 3D soundtrack:

Yokota: For that reason, at first I decided to spruce it up by arranging slightly more up-to-date music. But when I'd done about half, Kondo-san suddenly said, "Make sure you stay faithful to the Nintendo 64 sound."
...
So I gathered together the development team and said, "We've got to remake all the music. We need to recreate the Nintendo 64 sound, so let's do our best!" Then we set about redoing it all.

roll

Adam Corn Jun 11, 2011

OSV's coverage of the E3 press conference mentions that JMP Productions, the company behind the "Play!" concert series, is also producing the Zelda concerts.

The Japanese concert (in which I'd imagine JMP is not as involved) is the first to be announced, and is slated for Oct. 10 to be performed by the Tokyo Philharmonic Orchestra at the brand-new Sumida Triphony Hall.

Tickets are on sale from June 16 to July 31 at a ridiculously cheap 1500-3000 yen.  The kicker is they're only available to purchasers of Ocarina of Time 3D.  Looks like perhaps they'll take the applications first then choose the winners by lottery.  Not happy about it but I'll probably buy the game and resell it just for a chance to buy those tickets.

Kenology wrote:

I don't know Adam... I hope they stay far away from Valtonen's arrangements.  He butchered pretty much every piece of music from Zelda he touched in Symphonic Legends.  I've only ever been impressed with just a few Zelda orchestral arrangements anyways to be quite honest though.

But I think Yokota will do a masterful job arranging and orchestrating - I'm pretty sure he'll be deeply involved.

Well we'll just have to agree to completely disagree there. smile  I am with you on the part about not being impressed with many Zelda orchestral arrangements though.  If you look at the ones in Sound & Drama, Hyrule Symphony, even the Orchestral Game Concert ones, they are decent fan service but there isn't a lot of substance there.  Which leads me to believe that generally the compositions from the Zelda series don't translate as well "1:1" into orchestra as other series.  Even this supposed leak of Yokota's orchestral arrangement for Ocarina of Time 3D - nothing wrong with it at all and certainly good fan service, but forgettable in the long run IMO.  So to use the word masterful for that while downplaying Valtonen's immensely scaled, genre-defying arrangement for Legends is a bit of a shock to me.

I'm not such a huge Zelda fan though, and only vaguely familiar with a lot of its recent music, so it's not as big a deal for me if they take liberties with their arrangements as it may be for some of you guys.

Kenology Jun 12, 2011

LiquidAcid wrote:

I'd also like to emphasize that Jonne Valtonen created a symphonic poem based on the Zelda compositions, and not a simple medley:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symphonic_poem

People should judge his work based on this context, but most don't do (leading to comments like "butchered the music", etc.).

What is a symphonic poem but a one-movement orchestral section based on some type of work?  I know it's easier to patronize and dismiss people who aren't moved by the same things we are by saying something akin to 'they just didn't understand it'.  But I like what Adam said here:

Adam wrote:

I'm not such a huge Zelda fan though, and only vaguely familiar with a lot of its recent music, so it's not as big a deal for me if they take liberties with their arrangements as it may be for some of you guys.

I think that essentially sums it up.  The small bits of Symphonic Legends I did like were when Valtonen faithfully recreated the melodies.  Songs like "Princess Zelda's Theme" and "Kokiri Forest" were wonderful for about 10 seconds until he over-embellished them, rewrote the melodies, added extra instrumentation that threw things off, and (pulled a Sakuraba and) inserted newly composed bits that weren't very inspiring, etc.  Had these embellishments, liberties, and newly composed bits been well done, I would've been fine with it.  I know that was supposed to be the point but I still didn't enjoy it at all.  But I'm glad you and Adam did.  It's no big deal.  To each his own! 

Anyways, here's hoping we get more info on the concerts soon.

TerraEpon Jun 12, 2011

Kenology wrote:

What is a symphonic poem but a one-movement orchestral section based on some type of work?

Not, what it really means is based on something external to the music, be it a specific program or even just a 'mood'. But it doesn't mean a simple medley of tunes, there needs to be a 'symphonic' component to it, i.e. development of the material in some way. Now while I don't believe I've heard the piece in question, it sounds as if he indeed made a 'symphonic poem' out of it. If people don't like that, fine, but one can't expect milk when it's clearly labeled orange juice.

Kenology Jun 13, 2011

TerraEpon wrote:
Kenology wrote:

What is a symphonic poem but a one-movement orchestral section based on some type of work?

Not, what it really means is based on something external to the music, be it a specific program or even just a 'mood'. But it doesn't mean a simple medley of tunes, there needs to be a 'symphonic' component to it, i.e. development of the material in some way. Now while I don't believe I've heard the piece in question, it sounds as if he indeed made a 'symphonic poem' out of it. If people don't like that, fine, but one can't expect milk when it's clearly labeled orange juice.

Again, I didn't dislike it because it was a symphonic poem.  I didn't like it because I don't think it was a particularly good symphonic poem - I thought I explained that above pretty clearly.  I would've liked to see someone like Shiro Hamaguchi arrange Symphonic Legends instead.  Based on his work with Final Fantasy, I trust him a lot more to embellish themes, extend melodies, and compose bridges for use in established works far more skillfully than Valtonen did.  Just my opinion though; nothing to take personally.

Ordim Jun 13, 2011

@Kenology

Like you are saying nicely, "To each his own!". However, I must admit that your passion for hating Jonne Valtonen's arrangements is reaching a ridiculous level for me. No matter if VGMDB, YouTube etc., everywhere I am reading your messages full of disgust. In fact, they remind me a bit on the hilarious "review" at ZREO that magically disappeared after a few days after publication.

I am sure that you do not care, and perhaps it does not matter anyway, but apparently Koji Kondo likes the Symphonic Poem quite a bit. Perhaps Valtonen did capture the music of the Zelda universe then? It might be that somebody else could have done it better. Who knows. But bashing Jonne Valtonen's work by saying he butchered just everything comes off ill-minded.

Just my two cents.

Adam Corn Jun 13, 2011

Kenology wrote:

I would've liked to see someone like Shiro Hamaguchi arrange Symphonic Legends instead.

Well he DID arrange some of Symphonic Legends (the Star Fox and F-Zero suites).  I'm a fan of Hamaguchi as well but how many 30 minute or even 20 minute suites have you heard by him?

You could certainly have someone string together a bunch of Zelda series melodies with a touch of embellishment and a modest original transition here or there and it might please hardcore fans of the games, but my own intuition is that it's not likely to approach the really great orchestral works in VGM.  (Once this new orchestral Zelda album comes out I suppose we'll have another exhibit to test that theory by.)

And I do agree that "butchered" is a harsh term to use towards a talented musician who audibly put an immense amount of time and effort into a 36+ minute work arguably more ambitious than any arrangement in VGM to date.  Of course if you feel that strongly about it there's nothing wrong with saying so, but it's likely to draw a similarly strong reaction. smile

LiquidAcid Jun 13, 2011

TerraEpon wrote:

Now while I don't believe I've heard the piece in question, it sounds as if he indeed made a 'symphonic poem' out of it.

He did and I have to admit that I was also confused at first.

TerraEpon wrote:

If people don't like that, fine, but one can't expect milk when it's clearly labeled orange juice.

Exactly!

LiquidAcid Jun 13, 2011

Adam Corn wrote:

You could certainly have someone string together a bunch of Zelda series melodies with a touch of embellishment and a modest original transition here or there and it might please hardcore fans of the games

Call it the VGL approach wink

Kenology Jun 13, 2011 (edited Jun 13, 2011)

Ordim wrote:

Like you are saying nicely, "To each his own!". However, I must admit that your passion for hating Jonne Valtonen's arrangements is reaching a ridiculous level for me. No matter if VGMDB, YouTube etc., everywhere I am reading your messages full of disgust. In fact, they remind me a bit on the hilarious "review" at ZREO that magically disappeared after a few days after publication.

I don't know what you're talking about.  Soundtrackcentral and Youtube (3 months ago) are the only places I've expressed my opinion on Symphonic Legends - I didn't say anything about this on VGMDB or anywhere else and I don't know about this ZREO review you speak of - you clearly have me confused with someone else. 

But anyways, this is not hatred; I just failed to be impressed by it.  If I don't like it, I don't like it, doesn't mean that I'm hating.  And I like Valtonen.  I enjoyed many of his Play! arrangements and Symphonic Fantasies but I didn't like this particular work.

Ordim wrote:

I am sure that you do not care, and perhaps it does not matter anyway, but apparently Koji Kondo likes the Symphonic Poem quite a bit.

You're right, it doesn't matter, but I think that's pretty interesting nonetheless.  I was wanting to know Kondo's reaction to it.  Do you have a link by any chance?

Ordom wrote:

But bashing Jonne Valtonen's work by saying he butchered just everything comes off ill-minded.

Well, I'm sorry you feel insulted and angry.  Again, it's not for you to take personally.

Adam Corn wrote:

Well he DID arrange some of Symphonic Legends (the Star Fox and F-Zero suites).  I'm a fan of Hamaguchi as well but how many 30 minute or even 20 minute suites have you heard by him?

None.  But the point was I think he would've done a much better job for the reasons I gave above.

Adam Corn wrote:

And I do agree that "butchered" is a harsh term to use towards a talented musician who audibly put an immense amount of time and effort into a 36+ minute work arguably more ambitious than any arrangement in VGM to date.  Of course if you feel that strongly about it there's nothing wrong with saying so, but it's likely to draw a similarly strong reaction. smile

I'm fine with people reacting as strongly as they are and I'm okay with being in the minority of opinion!  You guys are really passionate about this and I like that.

I went ahead and re-watched the entire second half of the concert and I think the word "butchered" is quite apropos here and and I stand by that description.  Of course, I know it took a lot of work to arrange and orchestrate all of that.  And, being a huge fan of Zelda and its music, I appreciate that he thought well enough of the series' music to even try this, but in the end, judging purely on the finished product, it just did not come together very well at all.  If anyone wants to catch feelings over that then that's on them.  But I'm really glad you guys enjoyed it though.


Edit: Expanded and edited for clarity.

Ordim Jun 13, 2011

Kenology wrote:

I don't know what you're talking about.  Soundtrackcentral and Youtube (3 months ago) are the only places I've expressed my opinion on Symphonic Legends - I didn't say anything about this on VGMDB.

http://vgmdb.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1395

Kenology wrote:

Would love for him to do a full score again. AND he needs to be rewarded with a full orchestral Zelda concert - preferably orchestrated by a competent arranger (unlike the awful second half of Symphonic Legends).

Kenology wrote:

You're right, it doesn't matter, but I think that's pretty interesting nonetheless.  I was wanting to know Kondo's reaction to it.  Do you have a link by any chance?

http://www.squareenixmusic.com/features … ker7.shtml

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