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Adam Corn Feb 25, 2014

Since Square Enix seem intent on releasing many of their new soundtracks on Blu-ray format only, and since the pros/cons seem to crop up in the discussion for every such release I thought we'd have a dedicated topic.

If you dislike the inconvenience of needing a Blu-ray drive just to listen to music (me) or find the claims or superior audio quality dubious feel free to rant about it here. smile

Or on a more productive note, would any of you who make a habit of ripping lossless audio from these releases care to give a quick overview of the process?  Are there some good free apps available and is it a simple procedure?  I know there are places like Hydrogen Audio for such topics but since not many of us venture those forums it'd be nice to have some info here.

Personally I understand that CDs are on the way out, but given that that's the case for optical media in general I really wish Square Enix and other large publishers would embrace some kind of lossless digital distribution (a la Bandcamp and Loudr).  It sucks having to make a choice between a questionable "upgrade" in sound quality requiring dedicated hardware or a downgrade in MP3s.

jb Feb 25, 2014

I'm okay with Bluray.  I just need to buy a PC bluray player to extract the audio because right now all I have is my PS3 and that just gets me their lossy mp3 packs.  I am not okay with lossless digital distribution.  Digital distribution is flawed from a collectors standpoint and that is what I lean towards.

GoldfishX Feb 25, 2014

If it were up to me, everything on iTunes would be available in lossless. I just can't fathom the idea of paying for files that have their data gutted and compressed, especially with the more readily available methods of playing and storing the files nowadays. Can I always tell the difference? No. Do I feel better knowing the source I'm feeding my gear is the highest quality possible? Yes.

At this point, I can just take a polite pass on these releases if you need a Blu Ray player and there is no way to extract lossless files. I wonder how many customers they turn off with these releases, because people don't understand them. From a business standpoint, it makes zero sense. Just sell a download voucher for lossless files and be done with it if you don't want to press CD's.

Also, I do some volume adjustments on every FLAC file that hits my hard drive, whether it's ripped or downloaded (convert to Wav, Wavgain, reconvert to FLAC). That's a huge advantage over just playing a regular CD. Same deal for playing off of a Blu Ray.

LiquidAcid Feb 26, 2014 (edited Feb 26, 2014 by Adam Corn)

There is a filesystem (UDF) on BDs, and everything there is a file, which you can then copy (leaving AACS aside for the moment). This is a huge advantage compared to Redbook, where you're dealing with _no_ filesystem at all, plus the usual limitations: offset correction, pregap handling, track number limitation, track indices encoded in subchannels, insufficient ECC/EDC data, etc.

Like I've already said on VGMdb. If it weren't for AACS, then the BD is the much better way to store audio data.

Adam Corn Feb 26, 2014 (edited Feb 26, 2014)

Moved the Blu-ray discussion from the FFXIV topic to here.  (And removed a tiny amount of bickering - or maybe just a misunderstanding - which I hope the parties involved won't mind.)

Redbook may have its flaws from a technical perspective but the fact is you can drop a CD into your PC's CD-compatible drive (which I would venture more people have than Blu-ray ones), click one or two buttons and there, you've got FLAC.

Obviously there's SOME way to extract FLAC from Blu-ray given that you see rips floating around, so I think the question is whether it's as comparatively simple a procedure as with CDs.

Razakin Feb 26, 2014

GoldfishX wrote:

Also, I do some volume adjustments on every FLAC file that hits my hard drive, whether it's ripped or downloaded (convert to Wav, Wavgain, reconvert to FLAC). That's a huge advantage over just playing a regular CD. Same deal for playing off of a Blu Ray.

Why wavgain, and not replaygain? Seems that wavgain makes the lossless thing bit useless as it edits the wav files right?

Adam Corn Feb 26, 2014

Razakin wrote:

Why wavgain, and not replaygain? Seems that wavgain makes the lossless thing bit useless as it edits the wav files right?

I was thinking the same thing. ReplayGain works well on my setup.

GoldfishX Feb 26, 2014 (edited Feb 26, 2014)

Not useless, I don't care so much about having a perfect 1:1 copy as the original, since I prefer my entire library to have the same perceived volume (and I feel the industry should have a standard anyway, so to me, a lot of "originals" are flawed). Reality is, I have the originals on my shelf and the ones I don't, oh well. I tend to leave classical (DQ Symphonic Suites, etc) albums alone, as they rarely need any type of adjustments anyway. In their case, I'd be increasing the perceived volume, which I'm not really a fan of doing (the only albums I do that with are redbook audio rips where the volume is recorded too low). Usually, I am lowering the volume.

Replaygain doesn't work with the Cowon players I used for the longest time (D2+). I've switched players (Ibasso DX50), but at this point, all of my music has either been ripped or converted with the adjustments (about 1.5 TB worth), so no going back.

Adam Corn wrote:

Obviously there's SOME way to extract FLAC from Blu-ray given that you see rips floating around, so I think the question is whether it's as comparatively simple a procedure as with CDs.

So it IS possible. Shows how hard I've actually looked.

Schala Mar 30, 2014

Ugh. I was afraid that I wouldn't be able to play these in my CD player. I was hoping that somehow they made the album so it was CD-player-compatible too. Listening to it on the computer isn't exactly a great option for me.

Schala Mar 31, 2014

TerraEpon wrote:

It's a Rlu-Ray with 6 hours of music on it. How could it be CD compatible?

I'm usually tech-ignorant. I've only ever known BD for movies and games, and BD players are those things you hook up to a TV to watch them. I've never heard of BD stereos if those exist, and I've certainly never known a soundtrack to be put on Blu-Ray before. So, hey, I was confused when something I'd known purely for presenting pretty images was now being used only for sound (regardless of whether that soundtrack includes video clips too). And wondering if they'd somehow managed to also make the disc playable in regular CD players.

In any case, I'd rather not get into a discussion over the crazy way my mind works.

Ashley Winchester Apr 1, 2014

Personally I could see being aggravated with these BD releases when BD was much more expensive... like the PS3 launch. But the tech has come down in price.

My only question is why dual layer DVDs are still expensive. Well, I think I know why... and I find it annoying I have to shell out money to Staples cause no one else in my area carries them.

Zane Apr 4, 2014

Adam Corn wrote:

It sucks having to make a choice between a questionable "upgrade" in sound quality requiring dedicated hardware...

I'm not familiar with Blu-Ray's audio capabilities, so apologies for my ignorance here, but I'm wondering if there's even that noticeable of a difference between CD and Blu-Ray audio? (I'm guessing no by Adam's quotes.) I'm talking about the difference in generation from tape to CD, VHS to DVD, (or even DVD to Blu-Ray) etc., where the difference was apparent.

James O Apr 4, 2014

Well Square Enix makes the claim that the sound on the blu-ray is in 96 kHz/24 bit audio.  I'm inclined to believe them but other people on some other forums I've visited seem doubtful of the claim.

jb Apr 4, 2014

Regardless of whether it is or not, unless you have a quality audio setup you won't be able to distinguish the difference between BD audio and CDDA.

Rrolack Aug 8, 2015

With more Square Enix blu-rays coming out this year, I thought it was worth reviving this thread with answers to last year's questions.


Adam Corn wrote:

Obviously there's SOME way to extract FLAC from Blu-ray given that you see rips floating around, so I think the question is whether it's as comparatively simple a procedure as with CDs.

It is entirely possible to extract FLAC from a Blu-ray disc.  Unfortunately, it's not as straightforward as extracting audio from a CD.

The first point which deserved mention is that, in most countries, extracting audio from a DVD or a Blu-ray is actually not legal.  This is the case even if you own the disc yourself.  The reason for this is: to extract the audio, you need to bypass the disc's copy protection, and this is never allowed.  My understanding is that every commercially-produced Blu-ray and DVD is copy protected.

However, if you have a disc that was not commercially produced, such as a wedding Blu-ray produced by a videographer, it likely will not have copy protection.  This is where my experience with Blu-ray audio extraction stems from.

With that disclaimer, there are two steps to extracting audio from a Blu-ray.  I'll outline both below.


HOW TO EXTRACT FLAC FROM BLU-RAY

1.  Extract the disc contents to MKV format

First, the full disc contents need to be converted to a machine-readable format.  The most popular file format to use here is MKV, which is a generic multimedia container.  Free software called MakeMKV can do this easily.

Basically, on a disc with several "chapters," each chapter will be stored as a separate MKV.  These MKVs can be played by many media players, including Windows Media Player (in Windows 10) and VLC.  Playing an MKV is just like watching a Blu-ray on a television.

2.  Extract FLAC audio from MKV

With an MKV file in hand, there are many programs which can extract the audio tracks to FLAC.  MKVcleaver seems to be a popular one.


That's all there is to it.

James O wrote:

Well Square Enix makes the claim that the sound on the blu-ray is in 96 kHz/24 bit audio.  I'm inclined to believe them but other people on some other forums I've visited seem doubtful of the claim.

The Square Enix Blu-Rays are all 24-bit, 96 kHz.  You can see this by looking at the back cover of each album.


Zane wrote:

I'm not familiar with Blu-Ray's audio capabilities, so apologies for my ignorance here, but I'm wondering if there's even that noticeable of a difference between CD and Blu-Ray audio?

jb wrote:

Regardless of whether it is or not, unless you have a quality audio setup you won't be able to distinguish the difference between BD audio and CDDA.

My opinion is that there is a noticeable difference, but that it's only apparent on a full stereo system.  I think you'd struggle to hear a difference on a portable audio player, through computer speakers, etc.

I can say that on my stereo, at least in other music genres, some of my high-res music (24/96 and 24/192) sound clearly better than any CD in my collection.  However, it is admittedly difficult to separate the benefit of high-res from an album's recording and mastering quality.  Usually, only albums which are well-produced in the first place will be issued in high-res, and so the two effects are hard to disentangle.

That said, there are cases where true A/B testing is possible.  For example, I happen to have both the CD and the 24/96 versions of Distant Worlds I, II and III.  However, I personally don't have the inclination to run the experiment smile


I will say that, as someone who does all listening through a stereo, I welcome any high-res releases we can get.  If all of my listening were instead on a computer or a portable music player, I'm sure I would feel differently.

jb Aug 8, 2015

One of the comments over at vgmdb notes that the releases, while encoded at 24/96, are just up sampled from 16/44.1 so they're not really the studio source. Some may be , I don't spectral everything i rip to check

One thing that I have to mention as I have ripped a few of these releases now is that the track definitions are beyond retarded. It's not a straight forward 1-104 tracks, there's like 40+ chapters and a lot of the songs are compiled into different tracks together, i.e. Tracks 8,9,10,11 might be contained in bd chapter 4. You have to really try pretty hard to identify which track is which, especially when there are duplicates. They also have tracks duplicated on the bluray, I'm not sure if this is just to fill up the disc more or if it's some sort of sequencing thing to improve seeking or reading the disc. They tend to be broken up into thematic chapters like the disc is broken into, like "field"/"battle", etc.

It's really a pain to identify them but not impossible.

Rrolack Aug 8, 2015 (edited Aug 8, 2015)

jb wrote:

One of the comments over at vgmdb notes that the releases, while encoded at 24/88.2, are just up sampled from 16/44.1 so they're not really the studio source.

Okay, interesting.

That being the case, I took to analyzing the true bit depth and sample rate of the three 24/88.2 Distant Worlds albums.  For more information about analyzing bit depth, see here:

http://www.hydrogenaud.io/forums/index. … &p=813684&

and for sample rate, see here:

http://forums.slimdevices.com/archive/i … 82700.html


The results are interesting.  Both Distant Worlds I and II measure as being true 24/88.2.  However, Distant Worlds III appears to be only true 16/88.2, which is certainly a bit disappointing.  Ironically, Distant Worlds III was the most expensive of the downloads ($15), while the other two albums were $10.

That said, I find it a little ridiculous of the few vgmdb'ers who assume that all high-res VGM is upsampled Redbook.  There will almost certainly be a dud here and there (as there are in other music genres with high-res), but for the most part, it's likely legit.

jb Aug 9, 2015 (edited Aug 9, 2015)

Rrolack wrote:
jb wrote:

One of the comments over at vgmdb notes that the releases, while encoded at 24/88.2, are just up sampled from 16/44.1 so they're not really the studio source.

Okay, interesting.

That being the case, I took to analyzing the true bit depth and sample rate of the three 24/88.2 Distant Worlds albums.  For more information about analyzing bit depth, see here:

http://www.hydrogenaud.io/forums/index. … &p=813684&

and for sample rate, see here:

http://forums.slimdevices.com/archive/i … 82700.html


The results are interesting.  Both Distant Worlds I and II measure as being true 24/88.2.  However, Distant Worlds III appears to be only true 16/88.2, which is certainly a bit disappointing.  Ironically, Distant Worlds III was the most expensive of the downloads ($15), while the other two albums were $10.

That said, I find it a little ridiculous of the few vgmdb'ers who assume that all high-res VGM is upsampled Redbook.  There will almost certainly be a dud here and there (as there are in other music genres with high-res), but for the most part, it's likely legit.

Not that it really changes much but this thread is about Bluray releases, are you looking at the bit depth and sample rate for the digital bandcamp releases?  I'm only talking about the SQEX Bluray releases that this thread pertains to (some of which I've ripped), which would be Final Fantasy Type-0 HD, Final Fantasy XIV From Astral to Umbral, Final Fantasy X HD, Final Fantasy XIV Before Meteor and Final Fantasy XIV A Realm Reborn.  It was a direct response to your quote:

James O wrote:

Well Square Enix makes the claim that the sound on the blu-ray is in 96 kHz/24 bit audio.  I'm inclined to believe them but other people on some other forums I've visited seem doubtful of the claim.

The Square Enix Blu-Rays are all 24-bit, 96 kHz.  You can see this by looking at the back cover of each album.

I didn't do any analysis on those but one of the threads for said album noted that they were upsampled, here: http://vgmdb.net/forums/showthread.php?t=11993.

Just because the back of the cover says they're 24/96, and that that's what they're actually encoded at, doesn't mean they're true 24/96 source.  So while you might think it's silly that "vgmdbers" doubt 24/96, there is reason to doubt them -- companies don't care and just upsample and hope nobody notices (or cares).  They're not using studio source and probably don't care to. 

If I had to guess, SQEX is doing Bluray releases simply so they can have are more visual experience with the album play.  All of these soundtracks play with concept art, game art, etc if you pop it in your Bluray player.  I don't think they care about total duration (They'd just make 4+ CD soundtracks, completley normal for SQEX), bit depth/sample rate/audio fidelity (it's clear they are just upsampling anyway [although worth noting that I think From Astral to Umbral has a 5.1ch so they are at least cognizant of better audio, all the others I've ripped are just 2ch/LPCM]) or anything else.  I think it just has to do with creating a better experience for users.

jb Aug 9, 2015 (edited Aug 9, 2015)

I still had the source MKVs on my PC for FFXIV: ARR and it is 24/96 according to the two links you posted.  I only looked at one MKV which was 6 different tracks but that should suffice.

bash-3.2$ bash ./fbits.sh *.flac
24/24 bits      A_REALM_REBORN_FINAL_FANTASY_XIV_Original_Soundtrack_t01 [1].flac
24/24 bits      A_REALM_REBORN_FINAL_FANTASY_XIV_Original_Soundtrack_t01 [2].flac
24/24 bits      A_REALM_REBORN_FINAL_FANTASY_XIV_Original_Soundtrack_t01 [3].flac
24/24 bits      A_REALM_REBORN_FINAL_FANTASY_XIV_Original_Soundtrack_t01 [4].flac
24/24 bits      A_REALM_REBORN_FINAL_FANTASY_XIV_Original_Soundtrack_t01 [5].flac
24/24 bits      A_REALM_REBORN_FINAL_FANTASY_XIV_Original_Soundtrack_t01 [6].flac
Frequency (Hz)	Level (dB)
187.500000	-12.435815
375.000000	-16.388432
562.500000	-18.669926
750.000000	-21.961761
937.500000	-23.981787
1125.000000	-25.708349
1312.500000	-27.776413
1500.000000	-29.634766
1687.500000	-30.638508
1875.000000	-31.247278
2062.500000	-31.433943
2250.000000	-31.813923
2437.500000	-32.472660
2625.000000	-33.662830
2812.500000	-34.098541
3000.000000	-35.057293
3187.500000	-36.725147
3375.000000	-36.609444
3562.500000	-35.500435
3750.000000	-35.317150
3937.500000	-36.541191
4125.000000	-37.039330
4312.500000	-36.477066
4500.000000	-36.622940
4687.500000	-37.940304
4875.000000	-39.175129
5062.500000	-38.602879
5250.000000	-37.939648
5437.500000	-38.391727
5625.000000	-39.575371
5812.500000	-40.001797
6000.000000	-40.424332
6187.500000	-40.862347
6375.000000	-42.051945
6562.500000	-43.211254
6750.000000	-42.462814
6937.500000	-41.182751
7125.000000	-42.142723
7312.500000	-43.847580
7500.000000	-44.308762
7687.500000	-42.461071
7875.000000	-42.718288
8062.500000	-43.685829
8250.000000	-44.762039
8437.500000	-43.950935
8625.000000	-43.727642
8812.500000	-43.208965
9000.000000	-43.162704
9187.500000	-44.610664
9375.000000	-45.260521
9562.500000	-45.156193
9750.000000	-45.279488
9937.500000	-46.225948
10125.000000	-46.607918
10312.500000	-46.865509
10500.000000	-47.382454
10687.500000	-48.785603
10875.000000	-49.626030
11062.500000	-48.973255
11250.000000	-47.971973
11437.500000	-48.570919
11625.000000	-50.265934
11812.500000	-50.294636
12000.000000	-49.997147
12187.500000	-49.717781
12375.000000	-50.345043
12562.500000	-51.195343
12750.000000	-51.011143
12937.500000	-51.134644
13125.000000	-51.645447
13312.500000	-53.751781
13500.000000	-54.017315
13687.500000	-53.406994
13875.000000	-53.600712
14062.500000	-53.552841
14250.000000	-54.058804
14437.500000	-54.291672
14625.000000	-54.624607
14812.500000	-55.014725
15000.000000	-55.508419
15187.500000	-56.825901
15375.000000	-56.270233
15562.500000	-56.379204
15750.000000	-56.755058
15937.500000	-57.064003
16125.000000	-57.422306
16312.500000	-58.594059
16500.000000	-59.209305
16687.500000	-58.639660
16875.000000	-59.140564
17062.500000	-60.012238
17250.000000	-60.047619
17437.500000	-60.532349
17625.000000	-61.646015
17812.500000	-61.346191
18000.000000	-61.419640
18187.500000	-62.444828
18375.000000	-62.473495
18562.500000	-62.142136
18750.000000	-62.152908
18937.500000	-62.781528
19125.000000	-63.075615
19312.500000	-63.301842
19500.000000	-64.021988
19687.500000	-64.641685
19875.000000	-64.119598
20062.500000	-63.999454
20250.000000	-65.521675
20437.500000	-66.956100
20625.000000	-66.496086
20812.500000	-66.091820
21000.000000	-66.369789
21187.500000	-67.026054
21375.000000	-67.838554
21562.500000	-69.051453
21750.000000	-71.203232
21937.500000	-74.777313
22125.000000	-78.345291
22312.500000	-78.889244
22500.000000	-80.944626
22687.500000	-84.682404
22875.000000	-89.316040
23062.500000	-94.999466
23250.000000	-99.926872
23437.500000	-102.678963
23625.000000	-103.729424
23812.500000	-104.949417
24000.000000	-106.168030
24187.500000	-108.136414
24375.000000	-109.405411
24562.500000	-109.202133
24750.000000	-108.235191
24937.500000	-107.483879
25125.000000	-107.746590
25312.500000	-108.552696
25500.000000	-109.708092
25687.500000	-110.354568
25875.000000	-109.825096
26062.500000	-108.242294
26250.000000	-106.908516
26437.500000	-106.199463
26625.000000	-105.943146
26812.500000	-106.143127
27000.000000	-106.682663
27187.500000	-107.440125
27375.000000	-108.089478
27562.500000	-108.762878
27750.000000	-109.392029
27937.500000	-110.277359
28125.000000	-110.713150
28312.500000	-110.613686
28500.000000	-109.788429
28687.500000	-108.539444
28875.000000	-108.044426
29062.500000	-107.444534
29250.000000	-107.362053
29437.500000	-107.392342
29625.000000	-108.040840
29812.500000	-109.081627
30000.000000	-110.181595
30187.500000	-110.677040
30375.000000	-110.576752
30562.500000	-109.885735
30750.000000	-109.239151
30937.500000	-108.832474
31125.000000	-108.851151
31312.500000	-109.341629
31500.000000	-109.936302
31687.500000	-110.436050
31875.000000	-110.340378
32062.500000	-110.042778
32250.000000	-109.193130
32437.500000	-108.948708
32625.000000	-108.877907
32812.500000	-108.882271
33000.000000	-109.040855
33187.500000	-109.778862
33375.000000	-110.417885
33562.500000	-110.536629
33750.000000	-110.444122
33937.500000	-110.633774
34125.000000	-110.862656
34312.500000	-111.233459
34500.000000	-111.476288
34687.500000	-111.567741
34875.000000	-111.163063
35062.500000	-111.038536
35250.000000	-110.954796
35437.500000	-111.151947
35625.000000	-111.433632
35812.500000	-111.396072
36000.000000	-111.361259
36187.500000	-110.570549
36375.000000	-109.091789
36562.500000	-106.213402
36750.000000	-106.611633
36937.500000	-107.479416
37125.000000	-107.705978
37312.500000	-108.363754
37500.000000	-109.484329
37687.500000	-110.684212
37875.000000	-111.226723
38062.500000	-111.328011
38250.000000	-111.189827
38437.500000	-111.004509
38625.000000	-111.061592
38812.500000	-111.252571
39000.000000	-111.548706
39187.500000	-111.593994
39375.000000	-110.551826
39562.500000	-109.750511
39750.000000	-109.522858
39937.500000	-108.967087
40125.000000	-108.629585
40312.500000	-108.559364
40500.000000	-108.445496
40687.500000	-108.366638
40875.000000	-108.537689
41062.500000	-108.990196
41250.000000	-109.713036
41437.500000	-110.324715
41625.000000	-110.851570
41812.500000	-110.487465
42000.000000	-109.827362
42187.500000	-108.854446
42375.000000	-107.991127
42562.500000	-107.644798
42750.000000	-107.869003
42937.500000	-108.531227
43125.000000	-109.140892
43312.500000	-110.170311
43500.000000	-111.050987
43687.500000	-110.364822
43875.000000	-95.203941
44062.500000	-86.630943
44250.000000	-90.110115
44437.500000	-108.116142
44625.000000	-110.084702
44812.500000	-110.976341
45000.000000	-111.453255
45187.500000	-111.284050
45375.000000	-110.954231
45562.500000	-110.967400
45750.000000	-111.050896
45937.500000	-110.931038
46125.000000	-111.606857
46312.500000	-112.253517
46500.000000	-112.602692
46687.500000	-112.839104
46875.000000	-113.337570
47062.500000	-114.014549
47250.000000	-114.279434
47437.500000	-114.094673
47625.000000	-107.711044
47812.500000	-102.515823
Frequency (Hz)	Level (dB)
187.500000	-11.566045
375.000000	-14.384921
562.500000	-16.303993
750.000000	-18.863447
937.500000	-20.698088
1125.000000	-22.777126
1312.500000	-24.269173
1500.000000	-24.389135
1687.500000	-25.442539
1875.000000	-24.250689
2062.500000	-26.588123
2250.000000	-28.387474
2437.500000	-29.793589
2625.000000	-30.702444
2812.500000	-30.630119
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