I personally don't read or write reviews anymore because of time constraints and there hasn't been much that I've felt strongly enough about to sit down and cobble out the words to describe. But a few years ago, before digital "sampling" was widely available, they were something you almost HAD to go off of (either that, or message board impressions), because you were talking about a $30+purchase. Nowadays, you can just "sample" away. What I said was that no one even drops comments anymore on a lot of the newer releases. To me, that indicates a lack of releases that people care about.

And for the folks crying "broken record", I for one rather appreciate things people say about the state of VGM, whether I agree or disagree. I don't agree with avatar's post at all, but I respect it just the same (although Elfman only did the main theme for Fable II...I personally prefer his Oingo Boingo work than his game/film stuff). I think it's good to put things in perspective sometimes and personally, I wouldn't be so bummed out about the current state if I didn't care about it and want to see it improve.

Bernhardt: Hmm, I don't like Iced Earth, I'm totally indifferent to Nightwish (outside of Oceanborne), and I loved Symphony X. So I don't really understand what you were getting it.

Well, the thread was about how we personally feel this generation of VGM compares to earlier ones, so there's no need to underline that its your own personal opinion. I was just raising a few points I've been thinking about.

Definitely agree with that. It's soundtrack-status is the only thing VGM has in common with film music, in most things they are far apart. The game music field is wide, and there's room inside it for orchestral/cinematic-type music, but to say that that's what VGM as a whole is or should aspire to be is just wrong. Personally, I dislike about 95% of all film music I've heard and would consider it a great misfortune if a majority of VGM started sounding like that (although I don't think that will happen).

That is a good point that I overlooked. I feel it ties into what I said about the VGM community being smaller, more homogenic and closely-knit before than it is now. Reviews posted back then probably got many more readers than reviews posted today, because there were very few sites dedicated to official VGM around, and everyone went to those sites to get the word on albums. Now its simpler to just download the music, or check out gameplay videos on YouTube. The word and the music gets out faster, it probably kills the discussion more quickly than before on all but the most anticipated albums. Again, I'm not sure this is really proof of a diminished interest in new releases on the part of the general VGM community, it could just reflect improved file-sharing technology and availability as well as the proliferation of different sites/forums/sources offering quick impressions on the music.

I'm not going to debate Roosevelt's worth here, but I think he had a good voice. Its just that most recordings of it don't do it justice (thanks to the primitive technology back then). I like Obama's voice as well.

Ehh, just another failed example/metaphor, that's all!

WELL, if you ask me, back then, even before reviews or sampling, people BOUGHT the game the music was for, THEN decided they liked the soundtrack...now THAT is old-fashioned!...although, that is still what most people do these days; connoisseurs like ourselves are considered rare, and a VERY niche market.

*cough* Halo *cough*

P.S. Not a big fan of most film scores, either. They're for background, and little more; fuckers need to compose stuff that's more melodic...

Damn, that makes me feel old

Well, if I misunderstood, then I'm sorry, but if he actually DID mean the PS2 era, his point becomes even more moot, cos the PS2 has TONS of awesome soundtracks.

Main problem I have with the 128-bit era is that it promoted numerous Western, mostly American, F-class film / trailer composers leading major game projects under farcical organisations like G.A.N.G. Not really people like Jeremy Soule, Bill Brown, Michael Giacchino, Jason Graves, or Richard Jacques, who have distinctive styles or are at least competent. More derivative and untalented composers like Gerard Marino, Christopher Lennertz, Jack Wall, Chris Rickwood, and usually Inon Zur. There's a lot of good Western music out there, but these guys make a lot of big game scores boring and uninspired. If you're going to use an orchestra, at least learn how to use it and employ really good orchestrators, conductors, and orchestras. Jack Wall orchestrating and conducting the Slovak Youth Orchestra and recording after two rehearsals really isn't acceptable if VGM is be recognised artistically.

On the Eastern side, I'm pretty pleased with how VGM developed over this era. I'm inclined to agree that many of the big name composers became tired with their demanding schedules and that the increasingly commercial focus on video games often prevented creativity coming across. Some sound teams, especially Square Enix's, have became weak, but others have been fine and Gust, Capcom, and Falcom have been consistently excellent in my opinion. However, there are probably more people working on video game music than ever and that's really helped to make the 128-bit era the most diverse in style to date. A bit of a composer turnover in the industry would help to rejuvenate things and we'd also benefit from more melody rather than riff / ostinato focused soundtracks.

I like kt2's work more than almost any old VGM I can think about, save some few arrangements. Zwei!!, both the soundtrack and the arrange, is something I would be bound to consider very impressive and diverse. Silent Hill 2 & 3 are both mind-blowing. Baten Kaitos and Star Ocean 3 are beautiful works from Sakuraba, and I think I would've reached a similar conclusion had I used time and effort to get into Valkyrie Profile 2, Indefinite Discovery (or whatever) and Eternal Sonata.

Masashi Hamauzu's work is also splendid, I think. feel / Elements Garden have made some very emotional and great music... Doesn't Napple Tale belong to the 6th generation as well? And not to mention Shadow Hearts! Shadow Hearts! Shit, this is getting old.

Surely, I can't think of much older VGM that I enjoy more than these and many more newer titles. I do love several old Falcom goodies, but none of them even approaches Zwei!!, from my perspective. Is Final Fantasy VI really that great on its own? Does Frog's Theme compare to "In Between the Winds" from Baten Kaitos, esthetically? (Retoric questions! )

For some reason, I listen more to old VGM than new, I think. Guess it is nostalgia. But most of the VGM that I consider inherently good, is from the 6th generation. And come to think of it, a lot of newer soundtracks that are supposed to be great (in a "new" way), I haven't even listened to yet! Like Takada's stuff, the Katamari games, SuperSweep, most of Hamauzu, Manabu Namiki, etc.

But I guess this is only because I'm younger than most of you. Hehe.

Napple Tale is for Dreamcast, so yes basically. It's still one of the absolute best of the 00s...inspirations...and all (and I'm not as big on Kanno as many people are).

Yup. (rhetorical answer).

BTW, keep an eye out for the PSP version of Zwei 1...It's supposed to come with a fully arranged 2-disc soundtrack (probably won't get a seperate release, like Zwei 2 hasn't yet). I'm looking forward to it.

.

Ha! The music itself might not change, but people change, and people are the deciding factors, the ones listening to and appreciating and judging the music. Every generation thinks it is the focal point of time (which they are, but only in a subjective way and for a short while), they are absolutely convinced that their golden calves will be equally recognized and worshiped by subsequent generations. They usually get increasingly disappointed and grumpy the older they grow...

Music doesn't exist independently of the human mind. Human ears must hear it, a human brain must assemble it, demarcate it from other sensory input, and recognize it as meaningful and worthwhile. Without a person to hear the music, its just a burst of irrelevant and meaningless noise, meaning nothing to no one. And people change, different generations are different people. Thus what constitutes a "classic" is transitory and ever-changing.

The most important point in this entire thread.

Say what you want...I can't think of many bonafide "must-have" legendary classics in recent years that will draw the same amount of people to the VGM scene as the classic eras that most people refer to and which drew together a lot of the early VGM scene. I'm not saying there aren't good releases, but just nothing to really define the current era. I feel like the current scene is feeding off the enthusiasm that originally drew people to VGM and is benefitting from it. At best, fringe releases that appeal to a small population sector have come out (ex: Drag-On Dragoon for people that want something "different" but will probably alienate most people who listen to it or hear it ingame...Soma Bringer is a great score, but who's actually going to play the game? Right, a small handful of people, probably hardcore RPG fans...Not the crapload that played Chrono Trigger and loved both the music AND gameplay). Good example: Look at the current VGM concerts. How many people have heard the "classic" material they mix in? How many have probably heard a lot of the recent material?

Also consider how many holdover composers we have now that were still around 10 years ago. There are some I don't have an issue with (Yuzo's rejuvenation has been quite surprising and welcome), but the majority of the rest are ones I was tired of 5 years ago (if not longer) or have simply come to the conclusion that I respect them, but their music does nothing for me. Good new blood, highly appreciated.

And please stop the "grumpy old man" thing...You've said it several times and I don't see how it applies at all (it's actually kind of annoying). I think it's perfectly fine to express content or discontent with a current scene of music/movies/cereal selection/whatever. You're saying it like it's totally indiscriminate and the timeframe can't be helped. Well, sorry to say, I love a lot of music from both the 70's and 80's: I wasn't around in the 70's and I wasn't really aware of popular music in the 80's, when I was growing up. I largely grew up in the 90's and, outside of VGM, I thought (and still think) it was an incredibly shitty time for music as a whole (although I was blissfully unaware of the Euro power metal scene that was brewing, I'll admit). But that said, I'm also not so hung up on classics like Master of Puppets and Zeppelin IV that I can't enjoy Black Tide's Light from Above or Death Magnetic.

Like I said, the future will tell, and we can only speculate. There's a fair chance you're right, especially considering the fact that more and more music is made, making it harder for any one composer/series to dominate. But people might arrive at the scene from many more differing starting points (instead of just Final Fantasy, Mega Man, etc. as in the old days)...

I wasn't referring to you (and if I was, I'm sorry). I was just trying to make the point that things change, and its usually hard to keep up with and appreciate that change if you don't see much good in it.

I agree. I have many traits and sympathies of a "grumpy old man" myself, so I'm not knocking that. Maybe I've been using too strong language or something as usual (really, I was really trying to keep it diplomatic and cordial this time, I swear! ), but I get the feeling that some people miss my point. I wasn't arguing for one era over the other or that people who like older VGM are "stuck in the past", I'm just saying the scene is in constant evolution, and its such a complex thing that its hard to demarcate "good" from "bad" other than through a general subjective appraisal... And its always good to keep an open mind (another disclaimer: by this I'm not suggesting you don't have an open mind).

I don't really feel I have anything more to add to the subject.

There is nothing wrong with expressing opinions on the current state of VGM. Nor do I think the people like Daniel, Zane and Megavolt posted something wrong with strong languages. I moderately respect and enjoy reading your opinions, and please keep this discussion if necessary. I however just found it quite samey, repetitive and stale how a specific member has been posting the same thing again and again and again and again and again and again in every major VGM-board over recent years. I even swear I could emulate everything he posted in this thread by copy-and-pasting a shitload of stuff he has posted if I had enough time. I know he still has a right to post whatever he wants, and I just have to skim or skip it, but I think it's quite ironic and a shame that the guy moans about how stagnated the VGM is now becomes by far the most stagnated poster, hence 'what it's worth'. It's not a personal insult or attack. I do think he is a pretty insightful guy but could offer more.

(Psst, that's me he's talking about, folks!)

So...wouldn't this tend to indicate that I feel the scene isn't improving and/or is getting worse when prompted (you know, like how people respond to threads that people make on forums)? And how can I have been doing this over "recent years" when I didn't nearly give up on VGM in disgust until about mid-2007. "Recent years" would indicate more than roughly a year and a half.

Now, what exactly are you babbling about here? If I'm posting the "same thing" as before (as you've said twice already), what specifically are you talking about?

Okay, go for it. If you happen to find my comments about soundtracks I liked from this year at another board, I'll send you a cookie via EMS. If you happen to find a post of mine saying how few truly classic soundtracks came from the past couple years (my main point, more or less)...Hmm, don't think I've touched that one either. You might want to look and find out. I really don't think you'll be able to accurately recreate this mess.

You'll probably find some stuff repeated, as you will with most people: my preference for older VGM (though more of a recent revelation than anything else), composer-specific bashings/lovefests, album specific bashings/lovefests. Overall though, I think you're confusing my negative sentiment for the current scene with something I've said in the past.

Well...yeah. Page down will probably save you the aggravation, if it bothers you that much. My avatar is pretty colorful and hard to miss as well, so just skip down when you see it.

You know, I'm really tired of people complaining about the economy. All this constant talk of greedy companies and poor business practices...The incompetent multi-billion dollar companies aren't the problem. These people that talk about it are the REAL problem.

You know, I'm really tired of people complaining about steroids in baseball. All this constant talk of cheating and lack of integrity...The players aren't the problem. These people that talk about it are the REAL problem.

You know, I'm really tired of people complaining about the Metallica Black album. All this constant talk of selling out and slowing down to appeal to a wider audience...Metallica in the 90's wasn't the problem. The people that talk about it are the REAL problem.

You know, I'm really tired of...God, I hope you get the point by now.

Likewise, this response can be seen the same way. I guess...I suppose.

I was actually kinda done with this thread until you popped in again (with nearly the exact same response as about 15 posts up...imagine that). It's just that I haven't had a nice chat with Daniel in awhile on a public forum and I was getting nostalgic.

And dude, speaking of going back, look what I found...

http://www.soundtrackcentral.com/forums … d=2659&p=1

http://www.soundtrackcentral.com/forums … hp?id=2549

Seriously, try dealing with what's in front of you instead of running to the "wah, he's being mean and STAGNANT" card so fast.

Um... no offense to anyone but who on this board isn't samey at least some of the time? I have my Mega Man X love-hate thing, Wild Arms 1&2 love, and anti JRPG thing going on, Angie has her shooters, avatar talks up atlus. It's bound to happen given enough time and while some may consider it stale at least it gives one an idea where people stand on stuff and gives them character.

Don't see the point of calling out one person when we're all guilty.

It's a matter of the degree to which one is samey. We normally have consistency in opinions and tastes, but I can't really think of a single member who posts the same thing to the same extent as him. What's worse, it's like ... he posts stuff to remind everyone how "bad" (modern) game music is (this is actually how he condemned people in Chudah's Corner), and while his opinion is fine (or rather, I always find it to be interesting and reasonable), the way he presents it is not.

I give up, anyway. How I ended up derailing this thread for a personl matter is certainly far much more obnoxious and obscene, for certain. I apologize.

I suppose there are worse genres I could be called upon as being samey, but I'd like to think I'm somewhat of a well-rounded specimen when it comes to gaming - save for sports titles and most current RPGs.  I'm just surprised that well-acquainted "music rhythm" card wasn't dealt to me this time. :)

Right, derailment.  Sorry, carry on.

They're making me angry though. They keep releasing all these games I want to play, but I have NO time, and very limited spending money... damn them!

on the other hand, they did provide us with this:

http://www.atlus.com/res/atlusoweenie_runnerup_51.jpg

that, will never get old

cheers,

-avatar!

Ho! But then what of classical music? And baroque? And impressionist?

I do get what you are saying, and I agree, but like I said, sometimes a classic is set in stone as a classic. Sometimes only time will tell what these classics are.

Actually it's pretty much 'always' one needs to wait to decide, as popular stuff very easily can fall out of favor amd be forgotten (even back in the 19th century!), while others can be 'rediscovered'.

One thing to consider, though, when judging new vs old. How many times have to you continued to listen to the old stuff now and again? It's ingrained in your mind, where as newer stuff hasn't been digested quite so much. Furthermore, the more music you listen to, the less place any one will have, so the older stuff that already held a place is going to more likely keep it.

If that makes any sense.

No offense to classical music-lovers, but most symphonic music we casually refer to as "classics" owe A LOT to the force of tradition. They have a special place in our culture because they were promoted and sustained by the privileged and powerful classes of centuries past (there's been many kinds of music throughout history, what we see as "classics" are just the preserved ones), and they've now become cultural symbols. That doesn't of course mean that a person today can't love them purely on musical basis, but it does mean that there are some people who listen to them for snobbish and elitist reasons.

In a sense, "oldschool" versus "newschool" VGM is a microcosm of the entire music world not only in the fact that it contains most musical styles within its confines - it also reflects music history. Oldschool VGM can be compared to the old classics like Bach, Mozart, etc., and newschool can be said to be popular music from the early 20th century and onwards. Like the explosion and proliferation of different styles from the 1950s to this day, "new" VGM moves in every direction fast, attracting many different people with very little common ground. Like the classics, oldschool VGM is much more homogeneous and clearcut, and appeals to people with very strict tastes. Not to once again go into the "grumpy old men"-bit, but as time goes by and we move further and further from the age of the classics, 8- and 16-bit music is going to increasingly become relegated to a niche-status like most classical music is today. Of course there's always gonna be people listening to it and loving it, but that circle is going to grow smaller and more hardcore (and in the case of most individuals involved: grumpier ). In a few decades "Final Fantasy VI OST" will mean as much to the average VGM-listening kid as "Mahler's 8th symphony" means to most of us (I don't even know if Mahler had an 8th symphony, I'm just using that for the case of argument).

All of that said, however, I personally certainly never plan to leave that hardcore circle of oldschool fanatics or stop loving the FF6 OST. Bring on the grumpiness! But also bring on the future...

Yes, that makes perfect sense. Thank you for pointing it out so succinctly (in far less paragraphs than I'd have to use to make the same point, haha). It is so true that the old stuff is "ingrained" (the perfect word, really) in your mind more strongly than most new stuff will be. And that which is ingrained at an early age always sticks harder and takes up more shelfspace than that coming later. Anyone who's seriously tried to change their lives in any fundamental sense knows how hard it can be to rearrange the old stuff to make room for the new. The early stuff is always gonna maintain a special kind of "glow" that puts later discoveries on an unequal footing in the competition. (And I'm of course aware of the fact that one can, as a fan of oldschool VGM, start listening to chiptune music that one never heard until now and start to love that as much as the old classics. But the argument still stands - if you've learned to enjoy that style of music at an early age, its not that hard to discover new stuff in that genre that you can instantly get into).

Wait a second...You're not getting off that easy this time. I'm calling you out, you little passive-aggressive stalker. And this time, no half-hearted SEMO IM's to smooth things over...You started this in public, finish it in public. Otherwise, stick to IM's or the forum email if you have something directly to say to me or about me.

I'm well aware in Japanese, it's considered polite not to address someone directly. In this case, I have this to say:

Cedille, I am right here and I know exactly who you are talking about and so does everyone else on this forum that has at least one working brain cell (hint: this means everyone). You sound like a fool because everyone here knows who you're referring to. Deal with me directly if you have anything to say to or about me, otherwise quit wasting everyone's time. I personally don't mind a difference of opinion with anyone (and in Daniel's case, it's fun to debate over), but I have no respect for someone who has nothing to add to an argument and is merely vaguely commenting on the posting style of someone they can't even address directly.

I hope that wasn't too direct, Cedille.

Okay, I think the majority of modern VGM is trite, overdramatic, stale, rushed and downright bad (or is good and doesn't appeal to me) and I dislike or feel generally indifferent to many of the current composers on the scene...That's how I feel about the subject and if you don't like it, you should be skipping what I write about it. That's the basic recap.

But...really now Cedille, what is this nonsense about Chudahs Corner, a site I haven't had any affiliation with for close to 3 years (and when I left as a staff member, I didn't believe the current VGM scene was all that bad). No really, I have zero clue what this is about. Enlighten me and the rest of the world with this one.

Okay, mommy, can I go out and play now?

Okay, this is from before, but this is just childish and more than a little creepy, the more I think about it. You read my posts (and apparently have a better memory than I do, depending what this Chudahs Corner thing is about), you rile yourself up for years at a time apparently because apparently I repeat myself too much saying something you obviously disagree with and then you lay this garbage out, from out of nowhere. Honestly, get out of your little hole and deal with me and what I say directly, instead of holding up a clipboard and pretending you're giving me my yearly review. Otherwise, grow up because I'm not holding an honest opinion back on a topic I feel very strongly about, just because you're tired of reading it AND especially when it is 100% pertinent to a topic that was started by someone else and much of what I said was expanded on more than I planned because I was talking with someone else.

This IS a good point. However, I don't really think it's possible to form an opinion THAT thick, where you can't allow anything new to become classic. There aren't many widely regarded VGM classics I think I've missed (due to how long I spent listening solely to it), but my point for this whole thread is I don't hear much in modern times that I would recommend to someone breaking into the scene as a true classic.

I found my way around the metal scene by exploring what are largely regarded as "classics" by the established fanbase and it's really helped me branch out into lesser known bands on my own (or bands less popular with the core metal fanbase, like the 80's hairbands). Though, mind you, everything recommended by the fanbase is hardly to my liking, but I found a large number of hits that I was able to assimilate into everyday listening without buying fully into the hype that surrounded them. It just kind of "happened"...It's rare for newer VGM to have that kind of effect and most of the known composer base is so well established, I don't think it's possible for my favorites to surpass what they've done (it feels like the ones that are still around are barely trying, save for Yuzo...although Mitsuda has new life with me with his DS work) and it's unlikely the ones I dislike will win me over...and it took about 9 good years of trying to assimilate Sakimoto before realizing it was a lost cause and I was just wasting my time.

BUT (for the peanut gallery that is obviously reading this!), there are a few, from this year even. They're even mentioned earlier in this thread, which was apparently MISSED (granted, most are portable or decidedly 8-bit in style *strong hint*, but oh well...not all of them are).

Finish it in private, please.  Even if one or both of you have been offended, "finishing it" here in this thread is not going to make a big difference in how the world at large looks at you and it certainly won't keep this thread from derailing further.

Please

I'd be fine with finishing it in private, but I want an answer to my question here where everyone can see it, about the Chudahs Corner reference from this guy. That's all, I guess, but only because it makes no sense and it makes me look like I'm hiding something or holding a grudge or something (I'm not). I don't have any real interest in dragging this "stagnant" crap on further, but we supposedly dealt with each other "in private" before but apparently, he felt the need to carry on (then "conveniently" walk away).