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Ashley Winchester Aug 28, 2007

I was watching the Angry Video Game Nerd's video on the Sega 32X where he compares the quality of the music in the 32X version of Doom to that on the SNES. While the comparision was indeed interesting the reason I'm posting is I really forgot how crunchy the music for Doom was as I haven't played, seen or heard it in years - Zane's topic on Goldeneye got me thinking about this as well.

So I looked up the soundtrack for Doom and well just looking at the data I could tell it's something you wouldn't find too easily, probably something outside my reach but I also wanted to ask a few questions about the games as well.

What do you feel is the best version of Doom outside Doom 3? (keeping it old school)

Would computers nowadays even run Doom or would it be a lot like trying to play Tomb Raider I~III... SOL because of DOS being like non-existant?

Wanderer Aug 28, 2007

Would computers nowadays even run Doom or would it be a lot like trying to play Tomb Raider I~III... SOL because of DOS being like non-existant?

It's not as much of an issue as you'd think. In fact, Steam currently has the id Super Pack selling for seventy bucks with pretty much every game they ever made (including the Commander Keens). My guess is that they use DOSBox (a DOS emulator) to run the pre-Windows 95 games. If your computer is fast enough, it's a good route to take (although it has its bugs).

SquareTex Aug 29, 2007 (edited Aug 29, 2007)

Your music needs/wants are largely covered if you go to the DooM Depot:
http://www.doom2.net/~doomdepot/

And I'll be honest...while the original music by Bobby Prince is a lot of fun, I very much prefer what Aubrey Hodges came up with for the PSX and N64 versions of DooM. Rather than fast-paced rock-and-roll, he went the ambient-and-scary route...and it just seems so PERFECT.

So yeah, grab the original music, but do yourself a favor and get Aubrey's work as well. Especially "Mt. Erberus"...heh heh hehhhh... wink

Now, as for the game itself, there should be a DooM collection you can get at Wal-Mart or some place like that for about $10. (At least, that's what I did about four years ago. wink This version had the DooM 95 frontend, which worked very well in Windows XP.

Actually, after getting whatever version of DooM you can get your hands on, consider a source port! I became quite fond of zDooM myself...plays the games great, makes it easy to fly in levels and other enhancements. It was quite an experience playing some of the WolfenDooM levels with PSX DooM music playing. Spoooooky! big_smile

avatar! Aug 29, 2007 (edited Aug 29, 2007)

Ashley Winchester wrote:

What do you feel is the best version of Doom outside Doom 3? (keeping it old school)

I don't remember if it was Doom or Quake, but one night I sat down with friends and we just went through the entire game! Tht was my entire Doom/Quake career smile But, to answer your question, playing Doom (or it might have been Quake) in true virtual reality is definitely the best version in my book:
http://brighton.ncsa.uiuc.edu/~prajlich/caveQuake/

http://www.gamespot.com/features/cave_quake2/

And this one guy programmed it all by himself!

cheers,

-avatar!

edit: I got to play it for about 20 minutes, it's really quite amazing! You can look around as you would in real life, your gun and other environments are fully 3D and can be viewed from any angle! Yup, most impressive...

Dais Aug 29, 2007

Yeah, grab one of the shovelware packages that were made during the mid-late 90s that have the official episodes/expansions of Doom I/II and probably 2000 stolen WADs on the CD. Then go looking at source ports - there's somewhere in the range of five dozen of them, but there's about three or four that are generally agreed upon and recognized as superior. If you want to do the choosing yourself, the best place is to start someplace simple like here, then go down the rabbit hole.

The DOS games in the ID collection do indeed use a slightly modified form of DOSBox .70 (or something), and there was a hilarious little snippet of time right after the release when it was discovered that whoever put it together had broken the license by not including certain documents and stuff (you can distribute DOSBox with a commercial project, but it must include the original documentation, and if you modified the program any, you have to include the source for the modified version).

I'm pretty sure that all got taken care of, but I still suspect that using Steam isn't the best way to go for Doom - I think you can't modify the config files for DOSBox when you buy 'em that way, and I'd say source ports in general are preferable to DOSBox (unless you're an absolute, absolute, ABSOLUTE purist - and if you were, you'd probably have an old pre-Pentium computer just for this purpose).

Ashley Winchester Oct 11, 2008

I figured I revive this thread because I just finished Doom on the PSX and I had a freakin' blast. I had such a blast I just had to go find a copy of Final Doom as well - I don't want to stop.

In the mean time I guess I'm going to tackle Doom 64 but to be honest I'm not really fond of it... it almost seems to advanced (or nice) to be Doom and the atmosphere doesn't grab me nearly as much.

To Square Tex: I still like Bobby Prince's original music but I can see where your coming from with the music to the PSX version... added to the atmosphere quite a bit as I played.

I know Doom isn't a big deal today but man I just had so much fun.

Zane Oct 12, 2008

Ashley Winchester wrote:

I figured I revive this thread because I just finished Doom on the PSX and I had a freakin' blast. I had such a blast I just had to go find a copy of Final Doom as well - I don't want to stop.

Ashley Winchester wrote:

I know Doom isn't a big deal today but man I just had so much fun.

I was at a friend's house last night who is going to sell a bunch of PSX games. What did I walk out of there with? A mint copy of Final Doom. I'm firing it up as soon as I finish this post. wink

Ashley Winchester Oct 13, 2008 (edited Oct 13, 2008)

I know this topic has kind of split away from the music of Doom to more on the games but I'm about halfway through Doom 64 and I decided to read some reviews and some people have already summed up what I'm thinking:

gamefaqs review wrote:

And then there are the horrible controls. I played this game, thought the controls were fabulous, and then I played Goldeneye for a while, whose controls are the epitome of excellency. And then I played Doom 64 again; I threw the game away because the controls sucked so much. I mean, strafing is a crucial part of surviving in Doom; the L and R buttons are the strafing buttons, but the game also needs the joystick. You need to switch your grip to be able to use the left trigger button because you can't access it using the grip that accomodates the joystick.

Agreed, though it's not as hopeless as this guy makes it out to be. The default control scheme is terrible: using the analog stick, having L and R as strafe and Z as fire will get you no where fast. I changed it to Scheme 3 where the left and right C buttons where strafe and I had no problems. Wish the game would save this setting so I wouldn't has to reset it when I restart however.

gamefaqs review wrote:

the only time the game goes anywhere is after level 8, where you enter hell.

I felt a real change of momentium at this point as well, but now that I'm on level 13 and back in totally enclosed spaces that feeling is lost once again.

Gamstop Review wrote:

Play control remains the same in Doom 64 but seems somewhat restrictive when compared to that of the PC version. The analog stick enables you to force your Marine along at several different speeds - but it never feels quite right. In fact, this sense of being 'wrong' permeates the entire title. On paper, Doom 64 sounds better than the original could ever hope to be, but the end result feels more like a bastardization of the original.

I think this is what I want to say about the game although I think it deserves more than a 4.8 out of 10.

And just so I stay on topic (somewhat) I'm finding the music pretty aggrivating.

Ashley Winchester Mar 27, 2009

I recently purchased the Collector's Edition Doom for the PC - which looks fantastic compared to most of the other versions of the game I've played - and I was reading the read-me file and man, is it funny! Here's my favorite:

Problem: The Spectres (invisible demons) look fuzzy, and so do my weapons when I've got the "partial invisibility" item.

The partial invisibility effect and the Spectres display oddly on some video cards.  As of the writing of this readme, there is no known fix.  This should not have any effect on your gameplay (except that you can see the Spectres more easily than you're supposed to.  To make it fair, close your eyes when you're around them.)

Ashley Winchester Mar 31, 2009

Started to play Doom II on PC. The soundtrack seems more fitted to the sound format this time around compared to the original Doom which seemed more at home on the SNES.

Shoe Mar 31, 2009

Ashley Winchester wrote:

I was watching the Angry Video Game Nerd's video on the Sega 32X where he compares the quality of the music in the 32X version of Doom to that on the SNES.

He's usually funny, but sometimes he bitches about the stupidest things.

(Like when cartridges don't have end-labels, I mean who really cares?? Not EVERYBODY stores their carts on a shelf like that).

allyourbaseare Mar 31, 2009

Shoe wrote:

(Like when cartridges don't have end-labels, I mean who really cares?? Not EVERYBODY stores their carts on a shelf like that).

Hey, that bothers the crap out of collectors.

Ashley Winchester Mar 31, 2009

Shoe wrote:

(Like when cartridges don't have end-labels, I mean who really cares?? Not EVERYBODY stores their carts on a shelf like that).

I thought that was pretty funny.

Anyway, back to Doom, well, Doom II. Wow, the Reverants are simply nuts on the PC compared the PSX.

Shoe Apr 1, 2009

allyourbaseare wrote:
Shoe wrote:

(Like when cartridges don't have end-labels, I mean who really cares??

Hey, that bothers the crap out of collectors.

I don't even understand what the appeal of collecting shitty and not-fun-to-play Jaguar, 32X and N64 games is, anyway.

Okay, the N64 had a small handful of good games, but the majority of them were trash. Especially by today's standards.

Why would anybody want to hang onto horrible games?
He should do a big video where he takes every single bad game he owns and brings them all to a huge landfill or something.

He could recite a 'Prayer For The Unholy Pieces of Poor Programming' before dumping them into a garbage compactor.
Something along the lines of that 'Ashes to ashes, dust to dust' speech.

A video like that would probably be his most popular one of all time.
If he decides to hang up his act in a few years from now, i think that would be the perfect film to say goodbye with.

Idolores Apr 1, 2009

Shoe wrote:

I don't even understand what the appeal of collecting shitty and not-fun-to-play Jaguar, 32X and N64 games is, anyway.

Probably the same reasons some people collect stamps. For the sheer thrill of it, or maybe it brings them a sense of comfort, or whatever.

And for the record, was N64's library really that bad? All of Nintendo's first party efforts? Anything done by Rare and Treasure? That system had a great run.

Shoe Apr 1, 2009

Idolores wrote:

And for the record, was N64's library really that bad?

The majority of it was, yes. Especially when compared to the ps1's sharper graphics and infinitely better PCM audio capabilities.

Can you imagine what a joke the Legend of Mana soundtrack would've sounded like on the N64?

*shudder*


I think my opinion on this was cemented forever after i played a side-by-side comparison of the ps1 and N64 versions of Resident Evil 2.

To Nintendo's credit though, they atoned for most of their sins with the GameCube.
I'll definitely be hanging onto mine.

Ashley Winchester Apr 1, 2009 (edited Apr 1, 2009)

Shoe wrote:
Idolores wrote:

And for the record, was N64's library really that bad?

The majority of it was, yes. Especially when compared to the ps1's sharper graphics and infinitely better PCM audio capabilities.

I'll give you the fact the N64's sound wasn't as top notch for the time as it was for previous systems - go Sony SPC700! - and lacked overall charm (games like Goldeneye did wonders with it regardless) I don't think I've ever heard anyone ever say that the PS1 had sharper graphics. Really, you had two choices back then - blocky and pixelated (PS1) or a bit smoother and blurry Z-buffering (N64). I can think of quite a few instances where I'd take blocky and pixelated over smooth and blurry - a good example the original Doom being better than Doom 64 in every posssible category outside graphics prowless (and that's a general sense, as Doom 64 is a very ugly game!) - but if anything, the deciding factor that made me get a PS1 over a N64 was third party support. As great as some of the first party games for the N64 were (Mario 64, Wave Race) being at 13-14 at the time games that looked more mature (Final Fantasy VII, Resident Evil 2, Tomb Raider) drew me to the PS1. Well, that and $40-50 games vs $70 dollar ones. Nintendo scared away a lot of developers by using carts (Squaresoft) because, from what I've read, the profit margin companies can make from carts is lower than it is for CD/DVDs because Nintendo has their hand up developer backsides for manufactiing costs. Couple this with the storage capacity of the CD-ROM it's obvious why the PS1 became the front runner - and it really wasn't about graphics, but what they could do beyond that. Third parties eventually did come to the 64, spewing ports of PS1 games that where on the PS1 years before (Resident Evil 2, Mega Man Legends) with nothing more than a graphical update and (compressed music data so they'd fit) to - supposedly - make them viable again. So, I agree there was/is little to no reason to have boughten/buy RE2 for the 64 and the PS1 original still stands extremely well today.

Nintendo's choice to use carts was pretty much driven forward by greed, not by the desire to avoid loading times. Think about it, the N64 and it's games would have been a good/great even with CD-ROM and loading times.

Shoe Apr 1, 2009

Idolores wrote:

Anything done by Rare?

Perfect Dark was wonderful, i'll definitely give ya that one.

Idolores Apr 1, 2009

Shoe wrote:
Idolores wrote:

Anything done by Rare?

Perfect Dark was wonderful, i'll definitely give ya that one.

Goldeneye, Jet Force Gemini, Banjo Kazooie, Diddy Kong Racing, Blast Corps, Conker's Bad Fur Day? Come on, man.

Ashley Winchester Apr 3, 2009 (edited Apr 3, 2009)

Wow. I can see why they took level 30 (Icon of Sin) of Doom II out of the home console versions! I can't even finish the damn level on my PC because there are just to many damn things on screen and I eventually get a freakin' error. To add insult to injury, I actually beat the damn boss and as it exploded from the final blow it crashed.

Cool boss, no doubt, but talk about an assine way to push the game's engine to it's limits.

I like the level that replaced Icon of Sin in other versions (Twilight Falls) even though it lacks any real boss.

Ashley Winchester Apr 12, 2009

Ashley Winchester wrote:

Wow. I can see why they took level 30 (Icon of Sin) of Doom II out of the home console versions! I can't even finish the damn level on my PC because there are just to many damn things on screen and I eventually get a freakin' error. To add insult to injury, I actually beat the damn boss and as it exploded from the final blow it crashed.

To be honest, I really think my hard drive is causing these errors. While playing through the Plutonia expansion in Final Doom (a nightmare of annoyance and cheap shots if there ever was one), it crashed right after a save on the 14 level which forced me to restart because I didn't keep multiple save files (thinking the above was an isolated incident due to the action on the screen). However, when restarting the expansion I ran into this on the fifth level which gave me no problems before - fortunately the crash was far enough from when I last saved that I could continue on.

I purchased a new HD so hopefully when it comes the game will run without any problems. Been having slew of other PC problems as of late as well. Still, I did not know that EIDE cables were more or less being phased out for a faster and less space clogging alternative - the advances you miss when your not messing around with the insides of your computer.

Also, it's a shame "Deep Into the Code" from the PC's Pandemonium map didn't make it into the SNES version of the game. Awesome tune, but the PC MIDI handles it much better than some of the other tunes. Also, I'd have loved to have heard an SNES version for "I Sawed the Demons."

Another odd thing, some of the MIDI's used in the PC version have multiple versions: "Hiding the Secrets" from E1M9: Military Base is slightly different than that used for E3M9: Warrens as the drums come in later rather than at the start.

Final Doom also has some cool tracks as well such as Stage 8 "Metal" and Stage 14 "Steel Works."

Ashley Winchester Apr 20, 2009

Ashley Winchester wrote:

Final Doom also has some cool tracks as well such as Stage 8 "Metal" and Stage 14 "Steel Works."

I've been looking for some information regarding the music from Final Doom and I've found some cool info. Unfortunately, the fact I can only find some and not all the info kind of puts a damper on it:

Composers: Jonathan El-Bizri, Josh Martel, Tom Mustaine, L.A. Sieben
not
Robert Prince like I originally thought which explains why Final Doom wasn't included on Doom Music.

Tom Mustaine:
MAP05, 17 - "More" - awesome track btw
MAP10, 18 - "Infinite"
MAP20 - "Horizon"
MAP22, 28 "AimShootKill"

I can only find the names for the tracks Mustaine did. Additionally, I was wondering why the track for MAP02: Human BBQ was missing and I found this:

All of the music from The Plutonia Experiment has been reused from DOOM and DOOM II, but TNT has 16 new MUS tracks. They were ripped from the TNT.WAD file using Csabo's eXtendable Wad Editor and recorded using Winamp's MIDI plugin. The titles come from the first level that the music is heard on. The titles come from the first map that uses the music. Note that Winamp's MIDI plugin doesn't properly play track 3, "Human BBQ" so the recording has been left out. It can be played with the MUSPlay command line program, but it outputs to OPL, not General MIDI, so the quality is poor.

However, using itunes to convert the MIDI maybe I can avoid this problem? You don't need a plug-in to convert MIDI's with itunes (though it does take a while to do the conversion). Did this with Doom 1 and 2 with no problems.

Ashley Winchester Apr 27, 2009

Anyway, I recently finished playing the four games in the Doom Collector's Edition and I am seriously DOOMed out - at least for the moment. So, in not breaking the vicious cycle of playing PC games, I started to play Diablo II again.

Still, to bring this topic to a close, here are some thoughts on the four games found in the Collector's Edition:

Doom
For the most part, the original Doom is just great. The level design is great (Doom II coming in at a close second) and having all the levels in their original form (there isn't a single console port that contains them all, though the Playstation port is well done) is more than enough to spring for the PC version. Really, it's the little touches - some of which were taken out of Doom II - like the map screens and the E#M# (Episode #, Mission # level indicator) - that give you a real sense of accomplishment as you progress. Still, if anything holds Doom back, it's probably the fact enemy types are so limited, the sequel doubling that number, though in some ways it's a blessing (yeah, I'm talking about you Archviles... annoying bastards)

If anything, being able to see the original end of Episode I, Knee Deep in the Dead - where you die and literally go to hell - is awesome (most versions don't include this scene) and goes down as one of the greatest ending/beginnings in video game history.

Doom II: Hell on Earth
As far as sequels go, Doom II offers what most would see as a meager upgrade; doubling the enemy types, add one new weapon (the super, doubled barreled shotgun) and power up (the Megasphere.) Surprisingly, while it is more of the same, the game really takes on a feel of it's own even with the use of the same engine. This has more to do with the construction of the levels than anything else, level  II-13: Downtown, proving this more than any other, with urban landscapes full of hell spawn, bringing the "Hell on Earth" subtitle real meaning despite the game's primitive look. Unfortunately, as high as this particular element soars, the fact this level is completely absent from the PSX version completely negates such a vibe from taking hold on the player in that version, which is really regrettable. Again, while it is more of the same, it is able to beat down most of the negative connotations associated with direct sequels.

Final Doom: TNT Evilution
One of the most impressive things about TNT Evilution is instead of just using Robert Prince's music as stock material like The Plutonia Experiment, Team TNT actually wrote a new original score for this add-on. This alone is enough to make it feel fresh, but while the level design doesn't really jump out at you at first, later on the levels seem to be designed around fun more than challenge, something that becomes crucial when taking in Final Doom as a whole. The difficulty ramps up near the end as one would expect - Mount Pain being, well, a real pain - but it never becomes a case where frustration eclipses the fun to be had.

Final Doom: The Plutonia Experiment
Before playing The Plutonia Experiment, you may have lots of fun playing Doom, hell you may even love playing Doom. Well, if "love" seems to be an extreme term to describe one's passion for a game, The Plutonia Experiement is here to turn that love into hate. Hate may be too nice of a term actually. Wow. Do we really have enough chainsaw guys in these levels? It's crazy how you don't see Former Marines and Shotgun Guys (the two weakest enemies) on a regular basis until halfway though were the game oddly seems to loosen its grip on your neck a bit. This is where a little of the fun returns, but by that point, any opinion formed is pretty much signed, sealed and delivered. In the end, this experiment is a mixed lot, and is flawed because it lacks the essential control element: fun.

SquareTex wrote:

And I'll be honest...while the original music by Bobby Prince is a lot of fun, I very much prefer what Aubrey Hodges came up with for the PSX and N64 versions of DooM. Rather than fast-paced rock-and-roll, he went the ambient-and-scary route...and it just seems so PERFECT.

So yeah, grab the original music, but do yourself a favor and get Aubrey's work as well. Especially "Mt. Erberus"...heh heh hehhhh... wink

Aubrey Hodges' music works really well in the PSX version of the game, but I've found it very hard to connect with when not playing it. There are other games - like RE4 - that have great soundtracks that, for the most part - share the same fate with my ears.

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