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GoldfishX Jan 23, 2017

For someone that put "Keep it clean" in the header, you seem very eager for a fight.

Donald Trump deserves his place as president because he won it, fair and square. 62 million+ Americans voted for him. Likewise, Obama deserved his place as president for the same reason.

Authoritarian in the sense that you're establishing a litmus test of "do you support Trump despite the audio that was leaked" and if the answer is yes, you're going to attack my character and then paint me into a corner that I'm complicit, like you're doing with ray. Save it, you're wasting both of our time and energy.

For the record, yes it was f---ing stupid for him to say it and no one is "okay" with it. That should go without saying. It's just that people have different reactions to it (different levels of disgust, I would say) and yes, I think it was just stupid locker room talk that was being held until the moment when it would have the most impact. My disgust for that, for example, pales in comparison to the $700 I have to pay if I choose to go without health insurance, which was established by Obama and his cronies.

Frankly, I think the "needy Latinoes" comment that came from the Clinton camp (courtesy of the Wikileaks dump) was far more offensive and demeaning, since the Democrats like to paint themselves as the good guys, the people that will defend everyone from the mean, nasty Republicans and raise taxes on all those snooty rich people. You want to fight over that one? To me, that disqualified Clinton outright because her whole campaign was centered around, "I'm not Donald Trump and I'm not mean and icky like he is, so I should be president". At least Trump is careful to distinguish between who is here illegally and who isn't, as opposed to applying that type of label across an entire population.

And the media...If you can't see the liberal bias in the media, I'm not going to sit here and explain it to you. It was there long before Trump was the nominee. So it's more of a "GOP-at-large" thing than a Trump thing.

Adam Corn wrote:

None of the Trump supporters/neutrals are dealing with people supporting a sexist, borderline racist, verbally abusive pathological liar.

I think there are quite a few people in this thread that supported/voted for Hillary.

GoldfishX Jan 23, 2017

Amazingu wrote:

The issue here isn't Trump flip-flopping on his stances, it's him and Spicer blatantly denying facts and evidence.

You can keep your doctor...the unemployment rate...

Yeah. That. But I'm not seeing the same outrage over Obama. Hmm...

At least Spicer was actually right about the phony report about the MLK bust being removed. I think that was a bigger deal than the pissing contest about the numbers.

Razakin Jan 23, 2017

I might be wrong, but wasn't it congress/GOP that made Obamacare to be the slight fiasco it is? Though, honestly, US should just get into free healthcare and raise taxes abit, even if it would be apparently *gasp* socialism.

Also, hasn't the unemployment rate gone down in the last 6 years, which should be thanks to Obama? (Unless I suck at reading graphs while suffering from flu).

And really hated how White House press started lying and sprouting laughable 'alternative facts' after Trump got in there. In words of that orange fart ball: "Sad!".

Jay Jan 23, 2017

Alternative facts equals lies. This alone should be a reason to worry just days into the Whitehouse. You are either cool with a lying President and his office or you aren't. Why take no questions? Because he would have been hammered by them, and with good reason. What is also a massive red flag, and on of course we saw coming from his Twitter account, is why the issue of the numbers came out and why it came so aggressively from Spicer - Trump's ego is so fragile that he can't handle a suggestion of a low turnout. A President that sensitive is a liability.

avatar! Jan 23, 2017

GoldfishX wrote:

For someone that put "Keep it clean" in the header, you seem very eager for a fight.

I put "keep it clean" in the header, not Adam, if you're referring to him (and I assume you are). I'm eager for opinions, not fights.

Adam Corn Jan 23, 2017

Adam Corn wrote:

So you're fine then with someone boasting about sexual molestation? You seem to be trying pretty hard to defend it so far.

raynebc wrote:
Adam Corn wrote:

You seem to be trying pretty hard to defend it so far.

No.  I sincerely doubt it all happened the way he bragged in private.

You didn't answer my question.

raynebc wrote:
Adam Corn wrote:

Most people (politicians included) don't make bold-faced lies about plain facts or deny saying things that they've been shown to have been recorded having said.

Politicians flip flop and revise their historical stances and actions all the time.

As Amazingu mentioned, there's a difference between changing your stated position and flat-out lying about proven facts.

raynebc wrote:
Adam Corn wrote:

None of the Trump supporters/neutrals are dealing with people supporting a sexist, borderline racist, verbally abusive pathological liar.

We've been dealing with plenty of toxic, rabid Hillary/Sanders supporters.

GoldfishX wrote:

I think there are quite a few people in this thread that supported/voted for Hillary.

Are you seriously going to tell me that either Hillary Clinton or Bernie Sanders have shown signs of being sexist, racist, verbally abusive or *pathologically* lying to the degree of Donald Trump?
There are toxic, rabid supporters on both sides, though the numbers differ and we'd likely disagree on which appears to have more.

GoldfishX wrote:

For someone that put "Keep it clean" in the header, you seem very eager for a fight.

I wasn't the one who wrote "keep it clean" (though I agree with it) and in any case nothing I've written has been "dirty" or looking for a fight. (And if your only example is going to be my last post to Ashley then please consider the context.)

GoldfishX wrote:

Authoritarian in the sense that you're establishing a litmus test of "do you support Trump despite the audio that was leaked" and if the answer is yes, you're going to attack my character and then paint me into a corner that I'm complicit, like you're doing with ray.

You're complaining about attacking YOUR character (which I haven't) because of what I've said to RAY. Part of the reason this thread keeps dragging on is you keep being offended by and retorting to comments you think are personal attacks on you that aren't. You've made it clear already that you don't condone what Trump said about groping women, or some of his other character flaws. Please let raynebc answer for himself.

And again, none of what you're claiming is authoritarian so I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't throw that word around incorrectly.

GoldfishX wrote:

For the record, yes it was f---ing stupid for him to say it and no one is "okay" with it. That should go without saying.

No, if you look at the things some of his supporters have said at his rallies and elsewhere, sadly it does not go without saying. And I'm asking someone here (not you) whose posts unfortunately are ambiguous about whether he's OK with the way Trump talks about sexual molestation to please at least clarify.

GoldfishX wrote:
Amazingu wrote:

The issue here isn't Trump flip-flopping on his stances, it's him and Spicer blatantly denying facts and evidence.

You can keep your doctor...the unemployment rate...

I'm not sure exactly when the "keep your doctor" promise you're referencing was made or how drastically you think it's been broken (link if you like) but legislation changes during the process and after, and not always at the behest of the people sponsoring it.

As for the unemployment rate, here are two articles that chart both the U3 "official" and U6 "real" unemployment rate. Both are back down to pre-recession levels.
https://www.thebalance.com/what-is-the- … te-3306198
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/the-re … 2016-07-08

Both of these topics involve the sort of gray areas you're emphasizing. Multiple parties and multiple processes are involved in passing legislation and multiple factors are involved in calculating unemployment.

Aerial photographs showing how many people are gathered in front of the Capital and electronically recorded figures about how many people rode the Washington DC metro in a day are somewhat less gray.

GoldfishX wrote:

At least Spicer was actually right about the phony report about the MLK bust being removed. I think that was a bigger deal than the pissing contest about the numbers.

If I'm not mistaken that was one reporter from one mainstream media outlet (and I don't consider any news site with huffington or democrats in the url to be mainstream) who inaccurately reported that, and soon apologized for being wrong.

raynebc Jan 23, 2017

Adam Corn wrote:

So you're fine then with someone boasting about sexual molestation?

To follow up with my opinion of how real Donald's claims from back then were, I'll play along with your line of questioning:  It's not proper for men to brag about their power and what they could theoretically get away with, but it reflects the way the world is.

Are you seriously going to tell me that either Hillary Clinton or Bernie Sanders have shown signs of being sexist, racist, verbally abusive or *pathologically* lying to the degree of Donald Trump?

I'm saying some of their supporters have taken it to the extreme.  Plus, as lifelong politicians, they keep their real faults more secret than an open book type person like Trump.

Jousto Jan 23, 2017

Seldom do I participate in conversations on the forum, although I come here daily to see what you, good people and fellow VGM fans, have thought about this and that. Furthermore, I told myself to never, ever say a word in this thread because I knew from the beginning where the thread was going eventually. Despite this, I felt I had to express my view on the subject.

The rise of populism has done one especially nasty thing: divided people into camps. It has happened on this forum, too. It saddens me to see that many whom I have seen as nice guys and have held in high regards, have turned out to have such negative views. This usually very civilized forum has become a place where you verbally grab each other by their throats just to prove your point. Stop it, and see the fellow VGM fans as your friends, as we've all been before. I want to read lively discussions about things we love, not things we hate.

Trump won the election, and he acts his way as the president. Tough luck. And for others, a joy. Yet you can't do anything about it, so just let it be, ok? At least don't heat up this forum any further, I already find it uncomfortable, and I'd hate to see anyone lose respect I have for them. No one will win this verbal conflict anyway, no matter how long you yell at each other. Sometimes, the best thing to do is to do nothing. So, peace and love for each other, and everyone else, too.

I wish this thread had never started in the first place.

avatar! Jan 23, 2017

Jousto wrote:

I wish this thread had never started in the first place.

Sorry, it really wasn't my intention to get people so angered over things. I figured here at STC we could have a nice civilized discussion. Well, for the most part I still think that's true...

brandonk Jan 23, 2017

I too, generally stay out these types of discussions...but I really was jarred by that first press conference and thought I'd mention it here as there was a running thread and it appeared everyone was being relatively respectful.  I thought that press conference raised a red flag and would be a concern to everyone.

As for political opinions go, It does seem so strange how differently people can and will perceive something, I thought was so obvious.   It just goes to show the perception of absolutes is not so clear cut.  And I guess, to some degree, water isn't necessarily wet, and the sky isn't really blue.

GoldfishX Jan 23, 2017

avatar! wrote:
GoldfishX wrote:

For someone that put "Keep it clean" in the header, you seem very eager for a fight.

I put "keep it clean" in the header, not Adam, if you're referring to him (and I assume you are). I'm eager for opinions, not fights.

Ah! Cheerfully withdrawn then.

I hope people understand the vicious merry-go-round that is occurring. Politics on BOTH sides are dirty. You can't take an open swipe at Trump without acknowledging the equivalent blood from the other side in some form or another, which is exactly what has been happening. That is effectively changing the narrative, by painting the Democrats out to be the "good" guys, when they are far from it.

People don't like Trump. And whenever he breathes the wrong way, the world is supposedly coming to an end. Okay then. But at least recognize why and how he got to where he is, despite himself. He had help from his opponents. Lots of it.

To actually talk about politics, I thought he had a rather productive first "official" day. Reiterating the border tax to a large number of CEO's and officially pulling out of the TPP, two stances I wholeheartedly support.

Amazingu Jan 23, 2017

raynebc wrote:

Plus, as lifelong politicians, they keep their real faults more secret than an open book type person like Trump.

Ah yes, the "open book type" person Trump, who keeps refusing to disclose his tax returns.
If anything, the fact that he's been as "open" as he is probably means he's got even worse secrets to hide.


GoldfishX wrote:

Ah! Cheerfully withdrawn then.

I hope people understand the vicious merry-go-round that is occurring. Politics on BOTH sides are dirty. You can't take an open swipe at Trump without acknowledging the equivalent blood from the other side in some form or another, which is exactly what has been happening. That is effectively changing the narrative, by painting the Democrats out to be the "good" guys, when they are far from it.

+1 for the Simpsons reference smile

See, here's the thing though: nobody's actually going on about how Democrats are the "good guys." Look at the comments in this thread. Nobody is saying that. At best, it's "they're not quite as bad."

Every time someone has leveled a complaint at Trump on this board, his proponents here are quick to point out "but Hillary and Obama have problems too" etc. Yes, we know.
Nobody is singing the praises of the Democrats here. We know what hand the US has been dealt, so we rebel against the idiotic things Trump says and does.

It's not about the Democrats being scum as well, it's not about WHY Trump won, We know this already, so there's no need to point it out. It's irrelevant, because Trump is the president now, so Trump is the one we should be focusing on.
Deflecting all criticism by going "but the other guys are bad too" doesn't take the discussion anywhere.

GoldfishX Jan 24, 2017

Amazingu wrote:

See, here's the thing though: nobody's actually going on about how Democrats are the "good guys." Look at the comments in this thread. Nobody is saying that. At best, it's "they're not quite as bad."

Every time someone has leveled a complaint at Trump on this board, his proponents here are quick to point out "but Hillary and Obama have problems too" etc. Yes, we know.
Nobody is singing the praises of the Democrats here. We know what hand the US has been dealt, so we rebel against the idiotic things Trump says and does.

It's not about the Democrats being scum as well, it's not about WHY Trump won, We know this already, so there's no need to point it out. It's irrelevant, because Trump is the president now, so Trump is the one we should be focusing on.
Deflecting all criticism by going "but the other guys are bad too" doesn't take the discussion anywhere.

Okay, let me put it in these terms...The Democrats have done stuff that has hurt ME and a lot of people I know, personally. They have failed to grow this economy even with near-zero interest rates, they are proud of an unemployment rate that is decreasing because people are FALLING OUT OF THE WORKFORCE and settling for crappy part time jobs, they are soft on trade, they slapped a horrendous penalty on people for not having health insurance (as well as pretending a bunch of subpar plans are actually helping people), they are soft on domestic security and they have no clue how to create jobs in any meaningful way. All the while, they are pandering to minority groups in exchange for their votes and showing an arrogance that is both scary and embarrassing, even for a political establishment. And they tried to coast to a third term of this crap by running a snooty campaign that essentially promised more of the same, only worse.

So don't complain about me "deflecting" anything. I'm happy to be rid of an overbearing, self-righteous, holier-than-thou establishment that makes its own people feel like second-class citizens. I'm happy they were sent packing with their tails between their legs and there were enough people that were fed up with them as well.

Trump, warts and all, talks directly to a lot of Americans by addressing these very issues and I happen to be one of them. No, I can't explain or defend everything he does and it's up in the air whether or not he can deliver on some of these promises, but calling our leaders (the political establishment) stupid and inefficient is a truthbomb that this country has needed for a long time. Populism 101, yes, but it was much needed at this point.

So no, I honestly don't think you "get" it. You say "the Democrats are bad too", but I have not seen any type of hints to suggest why you or anyone else might actually think this. You are using super-soft Democratic talking points to make your argument against Trump (Russian hacking, crowd sizes, fringe KKK association) This is extremely irritating and it makes you sound very naive for it. At least attack the guy on policy and not the fluff I'm seeing in this thread. If I want liberal fear-mongering, I can just go turn on CNN and watch them speculate.

Jay Jan 24, 2017

GoldfishX wrote:

I'm happy to be rid of an overbearing, self-righteous, holier-than-thou establishment that makes its own people feel like second-class citizens.

This is fine. And yet you're still doing exactly what he pointed out. It's like you still think we're in the election run. We're not. It's done. Trump won. Celebrate. Yay!

But don't be surprised that Trump gets all the focus, that he gets pulled apart when he is a serial liar among everything else. Because he IS president. Not the Democrats. Not Hillary. They aren't in the running so any time it comes back to "but they did this!" it IS deflection at this point, even if you have very good reasons for being happy that they are out of the picture. I won't deny you that part for a second. It is perfectly valid to be happy Trump is in because you wanted the others out.

But he IS in now. He must be held accountable for what he does. That's one of the wonderful things about your country, and in a stark contrast with some things in Europe by the way - your constitution and so many of your systems were designed to help protect the people rather than the government (the EU constitution was pretty much the opposite). Your country was already great in so many ways and holding government and those in power accountable is one of those great things. So what is now said and done and what has already been said and done should not be dismissed, should not be waved away. Those things should be examined and challenged. And 'but Hillary...' is no longer a part of that.

longhairmike Jan 24, 2017

just remember that bernie and warren have not taken off their boots,, and they remain ready to inset them into trump's posterior (whichever end that may be) every time he lies or contradicts himself, or his administration tries to twist some middle-class-screwing piece of legislation into a positive sounding spin.

raynebc Jan 24, 2017

Amazingu wrote:

Ah yes, the "open book type" person Trump, who keeps refusing to disclose his tax returns.
If anything, the fact that he's been as "open" as he is probably means he's got even worse secrets to hide.

My not being able to see his tax returns doesn't bother me.  If his tax records revealed illegal activity, the government would already know about it.  I don't particularly buy the argument that since he talks A LOT, he's probably hiding bad secrets.  Probably everybody hides secrets.

GoldfishX said quite a lot that I agree with.

Jay wrote:

It is perfectly valid to be happy Trump is in because you wanted the others out.

I appreciate this.  There are so many people that will just label all Trump supporters (regardless of their motivation) as racist, vile people.  Trump wasn't my first choice, but so far he seems to be working toward his campaign promises and that's what his voters should be able to expect from him.  Certainly all politicians should be held accountable, but the media in general has a reputation for being soft on Democrats and harsh on Republicans.  Crying wolf too many times will make people prone to disregard them, so the more objective both sides can be, the better.

GoldfishX Jan 25, 2017

Likewise, he was not mine either. I didn't even think he was serious until I saw the first debate and that he was in the lead overall. I was originally a Rand Paul supporter for his Libertarian views (sadly, the man seemed totally overwhelmed by the pressure of running for president, despite good ideas), then Rubio and I was really impressed with Fiorina's short burst of momentum. I thought she expressed her stances the best out of any of the candidates. At the same time, I thoroughly enjoyed him destroying Jeb Bush in front of the entire world, as he was the very definition of political establishment on the GOP side.

The one thing that has won me over on Trump, enough to minimize many of his...um, eccentricities is he brought the issue of trade to the forefront. You have the standard platform talking points (abortions, guns, healthcare, etc) but it's easy to miss the impact of deals like NAFTA and the TPP because it varies from politician to polician and they are pretty out of the mainstream, but Trump made sure everyone knew what they were and how they were affecting American jobs and his stance on them was clear from the get-go. It made me go back and look at them more thoroughly and I fail to see how they have been good for American workers or consumers. Certainly good for big businesses. They kind of pissed me off, to be honest.

Most of the other candidates did not emphasize trade nearly to the degree that Trump did. I think Bernie did somewhat? It's something him and Trump have a lot of common ground on (Clinton waffled on TPP, before ultimately saying she opposed it...tough to swallow when her husband was the one who oversaw NAFTA). Miker, you want to talk about middle-class killing policies...You can thank Bill Clinton for NAFTA and Obama almost got his way to fast-track the TPP.

Jay Jan 25, 2017

So where are we on Trump gagging his own departments from communicating with the public? How does that sit with the 1st amendment when a national park is seen as going rogue for tweeting science?

Kirin Lemon Jan 25, 2017

Did you hear, guys?  There were *definitely* 3 million+ cases of voter fraud which cost Trump the popular vote.  It's true because Trump says it is, despite zero evidence to support the assertion.  Also, his inauguration crowds were *totally* the largest ever, and don't you dare believe the photographic evidence and objective reality that says otherwise.  Your eyes and brain are just lying to you - only the Trump administration knows the truth!

Sigh.  Our new president is a petty, lying sociopath, and we're all doomed.

raynebc Jan 25, 2017

Jay wrote:

So where are we on Trump gagging his own departments from communicating with the public? How does that sit with the 1st amendment when a national park is seen as going rogue for tweeting science?

Perfectly within his right to enforce policies of agencies under his command.  Companies enforce gag orders to protect their image and control their public messaging all the time.  Past presidents have used gag orders in different scopes.  The first amendment doesn't protect any right to speak on the behalf of another person or entity.

Kirin Lemon wrote:

There were *definitely* 3 million+ cases of voter fraud which cost Trump the popular vote.  It's true because Trump says it is, despite zero evidence to support the assertion.

I don't think many really believe there's this much voter fraud, but there is undeniably some voter fraud.  I see this claim as an excuse to strengthen mechanisms to prevent voter and voter registration fraud in general.  I think the identity of every voter should be strongly verified and I think the taxpayers should bear the cost of voter IDs for the subset of voters that can't afford them.  If people can't prove their identity enough to get a suitable ID, they will need to work on that because they have bigger problems to worry about than voting.

Razakin Jan 25, 2017

raynebc wrote:

I don't think many really believe there's this much voter fraud, but there is undeniably some voter fraud.

So far there has been just 4 documented cases of voter fraud in the 2016 elections and 3 possible cases. Funnily enough, at least one of those cases voted for Trump.

Now the problem is do people believe this or do they rather believe their alternative ''facts''.

But yeah, seems that this is Trump & GOP's way to get voter ID laws and try to make minority not being able to vote. Or poor people. Hopefully if such laws are done, tax payers will pay for voter ID's if people can't afford themselves. Heck, you guys probably have to pay for that idiotic wall anyways.

Kirin Lemon Jan 25, 2017

raynebc wrote:

I don't think many really believe there's this much voter fraud, but there is undeniably some voter fraud.

Yes, so much voter fraud that it's statistically close to 0%.

raynebc wrote:

I see this claim as an excuse to strengthen mechanisms to prevent voter and voter registration fraud in general.

Again, problems which are statistically nonexistent.  What it *is* an excuse for is to introduce new ways to suppress the voting rights of millions of Americans.

So now we have you on record as being anti-transparency and pro-voter suppression, as well as your earlier repulsive attempts to excuse sexual assault.  Great.

Jay Jan 25, 2017

raynebc wrote:

Perfectly within his right to enforce policies of agencies under his command.  Companies enforce gag orders to protect their image and control their public messaging all the time.  Past presidents have used gag orders in different scopes.  The first amendment doesn't protect any right to speak on the behalf of another person or entity.

Oh, this is REALLY interesting. Curious about specific scenarios and if you would draw a line anywhere. If a government agency dealing with civilians (so something nice like a park not a military national security thing) were simply speaking publically available facts, it is okay with you that a government silence them. What about the individuals within those organisations?  Can they speak publically in their capacity as private citizens? Can they do it in private? If a government statement runs contrary to basic facts and someone knows that, should they speak up or stay silent? How far would you deem this acceptable in terms of reach? Would it be okay if all government agencies were banned from speaking facts? How about beyond government agencies?

raynebc Jan 25, 2017

Razakin wrote:

So far there has been just 4 documented cases of voter fraud in the 2016 elections and 3 possible cases.

That we know of.  More thorough vetting of votes would likely net more cases.  And even if not, it will prevent or deter more of the same.

But yeah, seems that this is Trump & GOP's way to get voter ID laws and try to make minority not being able to vote.

Yawn, more crap about minorities being incapable of following the same rules as the majority.  How condescending.

Or poor people.  Hopefully if such laws are done, tax payers will pay for voter ID's if people can't afford themselves.

As I understand it, that's generally already the case in at least some places where voter ID is required.  States that require photo ID should be willing to ensure all eligible voters can get it even if they can't afford it.

Heck, you guys probably have to pay for that idiotic wall anyways.

I've said it before, but that would be fine by me, whether it's a physical wall or a metaphorical wall such as fully enforcing immigration law.

Kirin Lemon wrote:

Yes, so much voter fraud that it's statistically close to 0%.

Possibly, but ignoring law breaking isn't going to make it go away.

So now we have you on record as being anti-transparency and pro-voter suppression, as well as your earlier repulsive attempts to excuse sexual assault.

Nice attempt with your simplified distortions, but nope.  Is it appropriate for me to call your argument a "lemon" (as in it being defective)?

Jay wrote:

Curious about specific scenarios and if you would draw a line anywhere.

People are free to speak out publicly on topics related to their job, but if their employer didn't authorize them to do so, they're liable to be reprimanded.  This is not a new concept and is common in public and private sector jobs.  Freedom of speech does not grant freedom from consequence.

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