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Jay Jan 28, 2017

Blocking green card holders at airports. Legal residents who went through huge vetting processes to get that and many on their way to citizenship.

Razakin Jan 28, 2017

Amazingu wrote:

Also, that ban doesn't include Egypt, Saudi Arabia, UAE & Lebanon which is odd, when if I recall correctly, the 9/11 terrorists came from those countries. Of course, main reason for not banning is probably the fact that Trump has business in those countries. So much about draining the swamp, more like increasing the swamp.

raynebc Jan 28, 2017

Amazingu wrote:

This is LITERALLY Nazi Germany stuff. IN THE ACTUAL. LITERAL. SENSE.

Where are the extermination camps?  Give Godwin a high five for me when you see him, will you?

About the temporary travel ban, I'll say that it is pretty severe but it was a campaign promise he's making good on.  Trump should honor the existing visas that were issued, and vet those ASAP before considering new visas.  Regarding the suspicious subset of middle eastern countries not included in the executive order, we're not privy to why they were left out.  For all we know, they already came to an agreement with the US about exchanging plentiful information about travelers.

Jay Jan 28, 2017

raynebc wrote:

Where are the extermination camps?  Give Godwin a high five for me when you see him, will you?

I'm not sure how much you are aware of German history in the '30s but they didn't just open extermination camps on day one. This was a long process and there are many parallels right now. Regardless of whether you recognise or agree with the parallels (you may not), definitely worth reading into so you at least can have that information for yourself.

GoldfishX Jan 28, 2017

Guys, we know you you don't like Trump and I understand you have concerns, but this type of sensationalist fear-mongering hurts your own cause.

Nazi Germany was horrific because they were racist and hostile towards groups of people living in their own country. Trump's measure is designed to address people coming INTO the country that may potentially be hostile, which is a very real concern that a lot of people have. This comparison is not even close. There's no reason any unknown person should be coming into the US and all it takes is one rogue truck rental to kill hundreds of people, so yes, extreme vetting IS warranted. You're comparing apples to eggs here.

I'm done with this thread for real this time. I think it needs to be renamed "Trump conspiracy theories and how the end of the world is coming", so people can speculate amongst themselves without any needless meddling. I'll check it in a few months and I'm pretty sure people will have come to the conclusion that Trump is Satan himself, by then.

jb Jan 28, 2017

GoldfishX wrote:

Guys, we know you you don't like Trump and I understand you have concerns, but this type of sensationalist fear-mongering hurts your own cause.

Nazi Germany was horrific because they were racist and hostile towards groups of people living in their own country. Trump's measure is designed to address people coming INTO the country that may potentially be hostile, which is a very real concern that a lot of people have. This comparison is not even close. There's no reason any unknown person should be coming into the US and all it takes is one rogue truck rental to kill hundreds of people, so yes, extreme vetting IS warranted. You're comparing apples to eggs here.

I'm done with this thread for real this time. I think it needs to be renamed "Trump conspiracy theories and how the end of the world is coming", so people can speculate amongst themselves without any needless meddling. I'll check it in a few months and I'm pretty sure people will have come to the conclusion that Trump is Satan himself, by then.

Please come back and let us know when Trump makes your life any better. Sounds to me like you voted for a charlatan.

Jay Jan 28, 2017

GoldfishX wrote:

There's no reason any unknown person should be coming into the US and all it takes is one rogue truck rental to kill hundreds of people, so yes, extreme vetting IS warranted.

Nope. This doesn't wash. Trump cited 9/11 as a reason for this and yet left off every country the 9/11 attackers came from. Unknown people should not include those who have a green card and have been living in the US. It should not include documented people as they are known. And the threat of one imaginary truck causing a full lockdown is ridiculous when you have shootings every day and nothing is done and yet the actual amount of terror attacks attributable to refugees is negilible. Lack of healthcare? Yep, that's killing people. Refugees? Nope.

Couple it with the list of immigrant crime and talk of registration and yes that's Nazi stuff and very real.

Kirin Lemon Jan 29, 2017

It still turns my stomach to see people here attempting to defend our narcissistic bigot-in-chief.  The horror that man has wrought upon the world in the last 24 hours alone is appalling, and I don't think I'll ever be able to forgive the rubes who allowed it to happen.

raynebc Jan 29, 2017 (edited Jan 29, 2017)

Jay wrote:

Nope. This doesn't wash. Trump cited 9/11 as a reason for this and yet left off every country the 9/11 attackers came from.

You know, I've read this argument quite a bit lately.  However that doesn't stop gun control activists from using shootings to push new gun control measures that wouldn't have prevented the shootings in question.  Apparently, the countries targeted by the executive order are those Obama's administration listed as being of particular concern due to the large amount of terrorist activity within them.  Syria in particular is cited as being notable for not providing enough information to reliably vet their refugees.  The 9/11 terrorists' countries of origin aren't presently considered the largest hotbeds of terrorism.

And the threat of one imaginary truck causing a full lockdown is ridiculous when you have shootings every day and nothing is done and yet the actual amount of terror attacks attributable to refugees is negilible.

I've read about more than a few mass vehicular homicides in Europe perpetrated by radical immigrants.  That continent is a cautionary tale about overly porous borders and their consequences.

About your assertion that "nothing is done" about shootings in the US, I disagree.  Enforcing the law is difficult when there are so many who disrespect it and so many people have been raised on gang culture, but taking away the citizens' gun rights is not an appropriate or constitutionally sanctioned course of action.  It would mostly serve to disarm law abiding citizens and criminals would continue getting guns illegally.  In places like Baltimore and Chicago you get one or two homicides per day even though places with looser gun control and astronomically higher per capita gun ownership have a negligible homicide rate by comparison.  The problem is not the presence of guns, but of the criminal element itself.  That said, I don't think it would be helpful to drag yet another thread into persistent gun politics.

Jay Jan 29, 2017

And yet what we have is a paragraph of excuses why little can be done for something that kills thousands regularly and is guaranteed to continue to do so while attacks that have killed very few anywhere and next to nobody in the US are used as a pretense to lock out and villainise masses of immigrants, many who desperately need help and are trying to escape from actual real terror and others who have been legally working in the US. I think you're right not to drag this back to gun control - you could substitute it with any other real problem that affects people every day and it just shows this up for what it is.

raynebc Jan 29, 2017

Crime is a bigger problem than access to weapons.  The public at large has a right to have weapons to protect themselves from criminals.  Any illegal use of weapons should be punished harshly.  Transitioning to the larger argument:  Laws should be upheld.  Border security is one of the areas where existing enforcement of law had been shown to have some weaknesses.  Terrorists have declared they intended to exploit weak border protection to infiltrate the country.  Terrorists have been caught trying to cross the border.  People slip through the current border security very frequently, and some of them go on to commit further crimes against the US.  What you consider insignificant others find concerning.

Jay Jan 29, 2017 (edited Jan 29, 2017)

You have border security. You might not have tried to get to the US as an outsider but for my entire life it is has been the one place I have to build in at least an extra hour because the process is so stringent, and that's even when the visa has been obtained in advance. No other country has its own section in our airport. This isn't new. Your laws have been upheld. And this ban runs contrary to the laws that gave many people visas and green cards. And while I wouldn't buy this argument, part of your gun argument is that you can't ban them because people would get them anyway and, in this case, that same argument could apply here - it is the exact SAME border security processes that are supposed to keep this ban enforced. If people could slip in, as many have, they could likely do it anyway. What this will prevent is all the people who would have done it legally according to your laws. You're kind of just faffing around the issue here.

My grandparents had the misfortune of personally experiencing both Soviet Russia and Nazi Germany and I know that dark history very well. People have often asked how things like that could happen, or how the people could accept it or even, with some, welcome it. This is it. The question of what you would have done is right now. It might not ever go that far and I certainly hope it doesn't and we have a good laugh about it in a few years time but this IS the path. It's now just about whether people accept it, welcome it, justify it, rationalise it and take us further down that path. The one encouraging thing for me is that it is very clear that many aren't. The divisions alone are tearing your country, which is such a huge shame in itself, but it is what could prevent this from going much further. He can't unite you. At least not without force and complete control of the media. My guess is he'll try the latter - Bannon is certainly pushing in that direction.

On a side note, what is up with Sean Spicer? On his twitter right now, he has retweeted an Onion article mocking him. And that after the two days of seemingly tweeting passwords, if the speculation is correct. It's like he is being held hostage and is desperately trying to send a signal to us. Hang in there, Sean.

Kirin Lemon Jan 29, 2017

Over 700,000 refugees have resettled in the America since 9/11. During that time, not a single one has carried out an act of terror.  Stop pretending this is about safety.

longhairmike Jan 29, 2017

GoldfishX wrote:

There's no reason any unknown person should be coming into the US and all it takes is one rogue truck rental to kill hundreds of people.

that damn timothy mcveigh,  we never should've let those irish in, right?

raynebc Jan 30, 2017 (edited Jan 30, 2017)

Jay, I have already mentioned failures of the border security as it currently is.  While you seem to notice my argument against increased gun control is vaguely similar to your argument against increased border security, the problem with either is how to do so the right way.  With either cause, there are bad actors that serve as examples of failure.  When violent criminals use guns, disarmed people are vulnerable and can't easily protect themselves.

On immigration, one of the vulnerable classes of people are refugees and those that are truly in trouble should be given consideration to be allowed in, as long as we can be reasonably sure they aren't a threat.  That is what this executive order is supposed to be about, but different people will see it through different lenses.  Canada, as I understand it, is open to allowing Syrian women, children and entire families in as refugees, but rejects single Syrian men (who are considered more likely to be terrorist combatants).  Perhaps a similarly pragmatic approach would have been better for Trump to consider, but his administration is responsible for the safety of our country and its citizens and I'm not wise enough to second guess security policy.

Another class of vulnerable people is due at least in part to weak border security, and that is the people who are trafficked into the country.  Some of these people are abused, kidnapped, ransomed and so on.  It is because predatory gang members offer a feasible promise of passage into the country and people put their lives in those criminals' hands.

Personally, I would rather the US be generous with visas, allowing migrants to perform needed labor and then them returning to their countries of origin.  The honor system doesn't work when people don't follow it, and subsequently a significant amount of crime is committed by those here illegally.  Some people are caught and are deported several times.  Entire cities openly defy immigration enforcement.  The deportation process is so slow that priority has to be increasingly narrowed to focus on the worst of the worst.  There could have been a better outcome, but the few bad immigrants have led to the consideration of remedies.

This travel ban is temporary, and I hope public pressure causes a faster resolution than the stated 4 month time table while succeeding in adding at least some control to our border as per its goal.

jb Jan 30, 2017

raynebc wrote:

This travel ban is temporary, and I hope public pressure causes a faster resolution than the stated 4 month time table while succeeding in adding at least some control to our border as per its goal.

Tell that to the 1000s of legal citizens no longer able to get back to their families, their jobs, or their schools. You're a f---ing lunatic.

GoldfishX Jan 30, 2017

"This travel ban is temporary, and I hope public pressure causes a faster resolution than the stated 4 month time table while succeeding in adding at least some control to our border as per its goal."

Resp: "You're a f---ing lunatic."

Classy.

Ray...just let them stamp their feet and spout hardline left-wing talking points among themselves. They say they want the view of the "other" side, then we are portrayed as the villains when we give it to them. You know, the "tolerant and inclusive" left. The same one that the US and arguably most of the rest of the world is distancing themselves from.

Stop wasting your energy. I doubt they are even reading half of what we have written in this thread. I hope they realize that type of hardlining and inability to admit when they are wrong is exactly what helped drive Trump to victory.

Jay Jan 30, 2017 (edited Jan 30, 2017)

raynebc wrote:

This travel ban is temporary, and I hope public pressure causes a faster resolution than the stated 4 month time table while succeeding in adding at least some control to our border as per its goal.

I can respect that. And appreciate your thoughtful reply too. I hope you're right. I can't quite shake the fact that a Muslim ban is what Trump campaigned for and, whatever else about the man, I'm beginning to learn to take him at his word when he says he is going to do something. I do hope this is temporary and not just the beginning.

Goldfish, your last line crops up from others too and it seems odd because it's like some Trump supporters almost feel he is inflicted as a punishment. Not sure that says anything good.

Razakin Jan 30, 2017 (edited Jan 30, 2017)

I assume raynebc can drop some sources to show how bad the border control is, and also why that Muslim Ban did not hit the countries where actual terrorists has come to USA.

Also, what's with the discussion that refugees (edit, scratch that, apparently ALL foreign visitors,) should disclose all social media sites and websites they visit and share their contracts from phones? Imagine if you would have to do that all the time when traveling.

GoldfishX wrote:

Ray...just let them stamp their feet and spout hardline left-wing talking points among themselves. They say they want the view of the "other" side, then we are portrayed as the villains when we give it to them. You know, the "tolerant and inclusive" left. The same one that the US and arguably most of the rest of the world is distancing themselves from.

I'd rather be hardline left than go into alt right side, which USA is doing currently. Like not mentioning jewish people at all on the statement on the International Holocaust Remembrance Day. Sounds like something Steve Bannon would do.

Jay Jan 30, 2017

Razakin wrote:

Like not mentioning jewish people at all on the statement on the International Holocaust Remembrance Day.

And being totally unapologetic about it. One might almost be led to believe that there was a holocaust denier in there or someone with neo-nazi leanings looking to reduce its importance in history.

Kirin Lemon Jan 30, 2017

GoldfishX wrote:

Classy.

Ray...just let them stamp their feet and spout hardline left-wing talking points among themselves. They say they want the view of the "other" side, then we are portrayed as the villains when we give it to them. You know, the "tolerant and inclusive" left. The same one that the US and arguably most of the rest of the world is distancing themselves from.

Oh please, stuff your feigned outrage.  Conservatives never get to whine about this ever again after helping to select a vulgar, lying, racist sexual predator.  Here's a tip: Don't act like human garbage and people won't have an excuse to call you out accurately for being human garbage.  Seems simple enough.

And, honestly, I'd go further - if you're defending this deplorable Nazi shit, you're not just an f-ing lunatic, you're an f-ing monster.

raynebc Jan 30, 2017

Jay wrote:

I can't quite shake the fact that a Muslim ban is what Trump campaigned for and, whatever else about the man, I'm beginning to learn to take him at his word when he says he is going to do something. I do hope this is temporary and not just the beginning.

It's been pointed out there are dozens of Muslim majority countries that were not affected by the executive order.  The difference with those affected is they are more dangerous and were previously singled out by the US government.  This order has already been softened to allow green card holders back in.  Interestingly, during the past day or two, Delta Airlines had a computer failure that cancelled hundreds of flights and stranded several times as many people in transit as the temporary visa ban had.

jb, due to your spiteful ad hominem, I may just be inclined to ignore you like a certain other angry, hateful citrus-y zealot in this thread.

Razakin wrote:

I assume raynebc can drop some sources to show how bad the border control is, and also why that Muslim Ban did not hit the countries where actual terrorists has come to USA.

I'm not sure what you're really wanting in the first request.  There is plenty of documented information about deportation numbers, which are still in the hundreds of thousands per year.  It goes without saying that many of those here illegally are not deported due to staying hidden or being sheltered by deportation discretion policies from the previous administration, sanctuary cities, etc.  Why don't you ask Congress why they didn't identify the countries you're referring to as current hotbeds of terrorism?  Perhaps the security landscape doesn't support labeling them so.

Also, what's with the discussion that refugees (edit, scratch that, apparently ALL foreign visitors,) should disclose all social media sites and websites they visit and share their contracts from phones? Imagine if you would have to do that all the time when traveling.

There are some state borders that try that crap with citizens traveling around the country, and that is indeed bullsh!t.  Crossing country borders is a completely different ball game, and I don't care if any country vets social media or personal contacts of people wanting to enter it.

Sounds like something Steve Bannon would do.

It's a liberal meme that Steve Bannon is an anti-Semite, but not even the Anti-Defamation League is able to provide evidence that he's said or done anything anti-Semitic.

Jay Jan 30, 2017 (edited Jan 30, 2017)

Yep, there are Muslim counties left off the list. And yet a 'Muslim Ban' is what Trump said on his campaign and are the exact words Giuliani used. Trump has said he wants a Muslim ban and I'm taking him at his word.

Edit: hang on, there are really state borders looking for social media type info? Really? Must admit I know precious little about US state borders. I've never crossed one. Only ever went in and out of the country within the same state.

Razakin Jan 30, 2017

raynebc wrote:

I'm not sure what you're really wanting in the first request.  There is plenty of documented information about deportation numbers, which are still in the hundreds of thousands per year.  It goes without saying that many of those here illegally are not deported due to staying hidden or being sheltered by deportation discretion policies from the previous administration, sanctuary cities, etc.  Why don't you ask Congress why they didn't identify the countries you're referring to as current hotbeds of terrorism?  Perhaps the security landscape doesn't support labeling them so.

So, people get deported, doesn't that mean the system works? As if you enter USA illegally, you're bound to get deported? I mean, how many illegal aliens have done terrorist strikes in US soil? Isn't this why Trump is doing this, playing on people's fears that if the border control is what it is now, terrorists can suddenly just jump in USA for free and blow places up?

Or is it more of illegal aliens taking people's work for cheaper? Is this, isn't it companies fault for paying horrible wages that no self-respecting human being would want, unless you're in country illegally and need money and so on?

But in the end, basically I'd like to hear your opinion what's wrong about the border control now. As non-american it's hard to know stuff like this.

Also, I don't think US congress would answer some twat from Finland. tongue But I do think that one reason why those countries that I've pointed earlier aren't on the list, is because Trump has business in those places, which has just a slight conflict of interest, wouldn't be the first one for him.

raynebc wrote:

There are some state borders that try that crap with citizens traveling around the country, and that is indeed bullsh!t.  Crossing country borders is a completely different ball game, and I don't care if any country vets social media or personal contacts of people wanting to enter it.

So, you wouldn't mind showing all your social media sites, websites you visit or personal contacts from your phone when you visit any country outside of USA? You don't value your privacy?

raynebc wrote:

It's a liberal meme that Steve Bannon is an anti-Semite, but not even the Anti-Defamation League is able to provide evidence that he's said or done anything anti-Semitic.

Well, his ex-wife did claim that he has said some anti-semitic shit. And let's face that creating Breitbart New doesn't look good either. As Alt-Right people are usually either full-blown nazis, or really close to them.

jb Jan 30, 2017

raynebc wrote:

Interestingly, during the past day or two, Delta Airlines had a computer failure that cancelled hundreds of flights and stranded several times as many people in transit as the temporary visa ban had.

The key difference being you don't get handcuffed and / or sent back to whatever country you came from when Delta has computer failures. Don't mistake a computer error and traveler inconvenience with the humanitarian and constitutional crisis going on right now.

raynebc wrote:

There are some state borders that try that crap with citizens traveling around the country, and that is indeed bullsh!t.

Jay wrote:

Edit: hang on, there are really state borders looking for social media type info? Really? Must admit I know precious little about US state borders. I've never crossed one. Only ever went in and out of the country within the same state.

No, there are not states that do this. There are no border checkpoints between states in the US. You can walk, bike, run, drive, fly, train, or any other mode of transportation between them freely. The closest thing you get to a checkpoint is an interstate toll booth. I don't know where this bullshit came from but it's not true in the least bit.

Razakin wrote:

So, people get deported, doesn't that mean the system works? As if you enter USA illegally, you're bound to get deported? I mean, how many illegal aliens have done terrorist strikes in US soil? Isn't this why Trump is doing this, playing on people's fears that if the border control is what it is now, terrorists can suddenly just jump in USA for free and blow places up?

Or is it more of illegal aliens taking people's work for cheaper? Is this, isn't it companies fault for paying horrible wages that no self-respecting human being would want, unless you're in country illegally and need money and so on?

It does mean the system works. Conservatives are just upset that people are "breaking the law" and people that don't look like them are "taking their jobs". This is a pretty good piece that sums up how difficult it is to actually legally get into the United States: https://medium.com/@allegralove1/i-tota … ee0810e5bf

The people that resort to it illegally are, more often than not, out of options. Do I condone it? No. Is it right? No. But shutting down the borders because you're afraid someone's going to sneak through an already time consuming, highly vetted, and expensive process and try to hurt us is stupid. It also does nothing to curtail illegal immigration.

Regarding the "taking people's work for cheaper?" comment, that would happen regardless of someone's immigration status or nationality. There's always people willing to do something for less, that's just life. This is exactly what happened in Germany, they started out by marginalizing people to "revitalize the workforce" and it did just that but guess what? They're all low-income, menial jobs anyway. America needs a revitalization, but you don't revitalize a workforce by just kicking people out and creating a bunch of empty holes for people to fill. You do it by creating jobs, building a workforce, educating the incoming workforce (young people) in modern technologies. Guess what's not coming back to America? Factory jobs. Do you want to know why factories are failing? Hint: it's not because of minorities or illegal immigrants. It's because of automation.

raynebc wrote:

It's a liberal meme that Steve Bannon is an anti-Semite, but not even the Anti-Defamation League is able to provide evidence that he's said or done anything anti-Semitic.

Let's be very clear here. Steve Bannon is an anti-semite, a white nationalist, and someone who has been quoted on the record as saying he wants to burn everything to the ground to rebuild it from scratch. Let's be very clear again. This is -exactly- what he is doing right now. Steve Bannon is not a charismatic nationalist leader like those we've seen in history. He's a hack, and he knows it, and he would never stand up to the face of public scrutiny if he ever ran for anything serious. This is why he's pulling Trump's strings. He is puppeteering the bullshit of the last 9 days and it's crystal f---ing clear what he's trying to do.

This is a very good piece: https://medium.com/@yonatanzunger/trial … 24990891d5
This is also a very good piece: http://motherboard.vice.com/read/big-da … exit-trump

You've made yourself crystal clear: you're okay with eroding the very foundation of this country and you're okay with doing it at the expense of everyone who doesn't look like you. You might be okay with that, but none of us are. I will not stand idly by while this shit happens and your indifference or willful ignorance allows it.

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