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Wanderer Mar 25, 2006

So I just beat Metal Gear Solid 2. Great game! I was on the edge of my seat more than a few times over the last few evenings.

But.

I am so very confused right now...

Qui-Gon Joe Mar 25, 2006

Penny Arcade did a comic that perfectly encapsulates my opinion of Metal Gear Solid 2:

http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2001/11/30

Still enjoyed the game, but despite Kojima's implied judgment that most gamers just don't get what he was doing with it, the plot is just plain lame (just because you can tell a story with a game that can only be told with a game doesn't mean you *should*).

SonicPanda Mar 25, 2006

Bah. Read this instead.

http://www.insertcredit.com/features/dr … index.html

A bit high-minded, but a generally good analysis of the why.

(spoiler time)Sure, some elements bug me a bit, mainly Doc Ock and his robo-tentacles, but it's really not as out of place in the MGS world as people make it out to be. Plane-crash victim revived without explanation? OK! Dead soldier brought back to life as (of all things) Predator-style ninja? Makes sense to me! Parasitic body part fighting for control of host? WHAT?! BS, MAN!

People are entitled to their opinions, of course, but people who seriously think Metal Gear's story was pure and logical before #2 need to remind themselves that they never considered a Predator-style ninja fighting a tank with dinosaur screams strange in any way.

Kojima answered his own critics, I think, with a non-spoiler throwaway line from Snake Eater: 'It's people like you [critics] who take all the fun out of [games].'

And hopefully it goes without saying, but PLAY SNAKE EATER. It helps to bolster many of the more confusing elements of MGS2's storyline, including the contents of that final codec conversation and a possible explanation for Ocelot's guest.

Angela Mar 25, 2006

All the same, much of the plotholes left in MGS2 will apparently be resolved in MGS4 -- at least, according to Kojima.  The Metal Gear Saga Vol 1 DVD that came with preorders of Subsistence quotes Kojima as saying that plot threads like how Vamp can't die, Ocelot's possessed arm, Olga's child, and the entire secret of the Philosophers/Patriots will be resolved - in short, that the 'Solid' trilogy will really and truly be wrapped up.

On a bit of an off-tangent, that music for the E3 2005 Metal Gear AC!D 2 rocks.  I just ripped the track from the Saga DVD, the cleanest version of the song I've heard yet.  Anyone played AC!D 2, or heard the OST yet?  Is this track in?

MGA2 E3 2005 Trailer

Wanderer Mar 25, 2006

^

On other words, all the big questions I had left. wink With the final revelation after the end credits, I have to assume that I was meant to be utterly baffled by the game. I'm just glad that it ended up being a great experience. When I first started, I was so irritated by Raiden and Rose that I stopped playing for a year. Rose's dialog could have been changed to, "NEED ME! LOVE ME! DEFINE ME!" and it probably wouldn't have made a difference.

And is it my imagination or was I being preached to near the end? That's not the first time I've seen Snake become a mouthpiece...

I'm gonna pick up the third game next. Should I get the original or the update?

XLord007 Mar 25, 2006

Angela wrote:

Anyone played AC!D 2, or heard the OST yet?  Is this track in?

I have no idea if that track is there or not, but the OST is good stuff and worth getting.

XLord007 Mar 25, 2006

Wanderer wrote:

Rose's dialog could have been changed to, "NEED ME! LOVE ME! DEFINE ME!" and it probably wouldn't have made a difference.

Believe it or not, Rose was my favorite part of that game.  Maybe because she was the only character that was remotely believable... :-)

Wanderer Mar 25, 2006

XLord007 wrote:
Wanderer wrote:

Rose's dialog could have been changed to, "NEED ME! LOVE ME! DEFINE ME!" and it probably wouldn't have made a difference.

Believe it or not, Rose was my favorite part of that game.  Maybe because she was the only character that was remotely believable... :-)

I dunno. I found Otacon and his sister pretty believable. Rose was just irritating. I think the moment I stopped taking that plotline seriously was when the two of them had a talk about how emotionally closed off he is WHILE he was sneaking up on a guard. wink

Angela Mar 26, 2006

Rose always made me puke up my Cocoa Pebbles.  But then again, when her "other self" kicked in, I felt that the game started getting its edge back, as far as deception and double-crossing goes - and between the least likely of characters!

Wanderer wrote:

I'm gonna pick up the third game next. Should I get the original or the update?

Although you can probably get the original Snake Eater for a cheap enough price these days, I say lay down the $30, and go with Subsistence.  It has Snake Eater, sans the awful codec and general load-time lagging, plus the bevy of new features and bonuses that really makes it the definitive version to own.  Just..... don't spoil yourself by jumping head-first into the more intensive bonus features, since they exist largely through the assumption that you've played the original Snake Eater already.

Wanderer Mar 26, 2006

Angela wrote:

Rose always made me puke up my Cocoa Pebbles.  But then again, when her "other self" kicked in, I felt that the game started getting its edge back, as far as deception and double-crossing goes - and between the least likely of characters!

A large chunk of the last few hours creeped me out. Between the colonel calling you every ten seconds to spout gibberish and the game over screen deceptively popping up when you're not actually dead, I was half convinced my copy of the game was faulty...

I sorta suspected that Rose wasn't who she said she was. After all, everyone ELSE in the game double-crossed at one point or another. wink

Although you can probably get the original Snake Eater for a cheap enough price these days, I say lay down the $30, and go with Subsistence.  It has Snake Eater, sans the awful codec and general load-time lagging, plus the bevy of new features and bonuses that really makes it the definitive version to own.  Just..... don't spoil yourself by jumping head-first into the more intensive bonus features, since they exist largely through the assumption that you've played the original Snake Eater already.

Thanks! No codec? I'm there!

Angela Mar 26, 2006

Wanderer wrote:

Thanks! No codec? I'm there!

Erm..... actually, there is.  I should've been more specific; I meant no "awful codec load-time lag," since the original Snake Eater suffered from an irksome problem where whenever you called, or someone called you, the game would take several seconds to load each conversation, and there were many instances where the sound and dialogue would stutter.  Subsistence eliminates those problems, and conversations now spring up just as quick -- and run just as smoothly -- as in MGS1 and MGS2.  One can rack this up to bad programming from Konami, possibly due to a rush-job to get the game out by the U.S. release deadline back then. 

As far as codec itself goes this time, though, it's used to a far lesser degree than MGS2.  With the exception of an extremely lengthy one in the beginning, much of the rest is better paced, or completely optional.  Though not detrimental to the main plot, I wholeheartedly recommend a lot of the conversations, though, particularly the amusing banter between Snake and Para-Medic.  ;)

Qui-Gon Joe Mar 26, 2006

SonicPanda wrote:

Bah. Read this instead.

http://www.insertcredit.com/features/dr … index.html

A bit high-minded, but a generally good analysis of the why.

I'm well aware of Tim Rogers' defense of MGS2 and must still respectfully disagree.  I personally don't really mind breaking the 4th wall and the large majority of the stuff that's in the game, but when they told me at the end that what was behind it all was the spirit of patriotism that lives in the white house, I was about ready to throw the disc in the trash.  Vamp?  Fine.  Fortune?  No problem.  The ending, though?  Moronic.

avatar! Mar 26, 2006

Qui-Gon Joe wrote:

I'm well aware of Tim Rogers' defense of MGS2 and must still respectfully disagree.  I personally don't really mind breaking the 4th wall and the large majority of the stuff that's in the game, but when they told me at the end that what was behind it all was the spirit of patriotism that lives in the white house, I was about ready to throw the disc in the trash.  Vamp?  Fine.  Fortune?  No problem.  The ending, though?  Moronic.

I agree with Qui-Gon here!  Although I must add that besides the ridiculous ending which made no sense and seemed like a bunch of ideas put into a blender, I also found the game repetitive, lacking challenge, and full of more holes than swiss cheese.  I expected some of those holes to be filled during the end, but nothing doing.  In my opinion, there's nothing wrong with a "crazy" story, so long as it has a somewhat logical conclusion.  I found MGS2 to lack anything remotely called logic, and the storyline in my opinion was basically nil.  Despite this, MGS2 was a hit, and many people love it.  Fine, I think everyone is entitled to his or her own opinion.  However I was so dissapointed with MGS2 that I have no interest in playing part III nor the upcoming part IV.  However, I do plan on going back and playing the GC version of MGS called "The Twin Snakes".  I do hope that has a nice, solid, somewhat logical story smile

cheers,

-avatar!

Dais Mar 26, 2006 (edited Mar 26, 2006)

avatar! wrote:

However I was so dissapointed with MGS2 that I have no interest in playing part III nor the upcoming part IV.

Unless you are in extreme financial straits, this is a very ill-advised approach to gaming.

Qui-Gon Joe Mar 26, 2006

Dais wrote:

Unless you are in extreme financial straits, this is a very ill-advised approach to gaming.

Nice edit there, Dais. tongue

Anyway, I do have to agree here.  MGS3 is an amazing game and the story contains the trademark MGS... fantasy(?) elements while still having a coherent and well constructed plot.  In fact, as far as I'm concerned, it's probably the best in the series for that.  If you play and enjoy Twin Snakes, I'd highly recommend Snake Eater afterwards.

avatar! Mar 27, 2006

Qui-Gon Joe wrote:
Dais wrote:

Unless you are in extreme financial straits, this is a very ill-advised approach to gaming.

Nice edit there, Dais. tongue

Anyway, I do have to agree here.  MGS3 is an amazing game and the story contains the trademark MGS... fantasy(?) elements while still having a coherent and well constructed plot.  In fact, as far as I'm concerned, it's probably the best in the series for that.  If you play and enjoy Twin Snakes, I'd highly recommend Snake Eater afterwards.

OK, fair enough.  I'll see how much I enjoy Twin Snakes, and if the mood strikes me, I'll acquire MGS3 smile

cheers,

-avatar!

Idolores Mar 27, 2006 (edited Mar 27, 2006)

There's no denying that Metal Gear Solid 2 was a great game. Make of the story what you will, but when the game was in action, it was hard to top.

One thing that I'll never understand is all the animosity directed towards Raiden. I thought he was cooler than Snake was in that game.

While I find that the first Metal Gear Solid title had some of the most incredible villians ever (PSYCHO MANTIS!! YEAH, DAWG!!), I firmly believe that the series is degenerating in this respect since Metal Gear Solid 2. I mean, Fortune was all right, but what's this about Vamp? Running on water, deflecting bullets with a goddamn knife? Yeah, not too fond of vampire Jesus (he had a sexy voice, though). Fat Man was pretty lame, as well, even if he was the most aptly named of them all.

Snake Eater continued this trend. The moment I laid eyes on The Pain, I lost a lot of respect for Kojima's ability to create memorable villians. He made up for it with The Boss, however, but it still can't erase the lameness of having to fight some guy who fires bees from his mouth.

That's all I really have to say.

Jay Mar 27, 2006

I agree about the villains - the telling thing about Vamp is that many of his traits were meant for the Chinaman character. When he was dropped, Vamp inherited his water abilities regardless of whether they fit or not. It was a clumsy move in my opinion.

I did like the old sniper guy in MGS3 though...

Sabreman Mar 27, 2006 (edited Mar 27, 2006)

It would have been a great game had it not been a lazy retread of the original, only with less interesting characters and story.

By the time I reached an electrified floor and was prompted to find a Nikita launcher I had pretty much lost all interest in it. There are two schools of opinion on that. One is that it's all terribly clever and one that it's all terribly lazy and kind of insulting to the fans. I'm with the latter.

Qui-Gon Joe Mar 27, 2006

Put me in the column of people who don't understand the Raiden hatred either.  Are these actually the same people complaining about him who dig JRPGs that pretty much all star prettyboys?  I thought Raiden was rather cool and don't really mind his design at all.

As for the villains, The Pain was really the only one in MGS3 I didn't care for.  The rest I thought were rather well done, ESPECIALLY The End (one of my favorite boss battles in any game ever - though I can completely understand why some people would hate it).

XLord007 Mar 27, 2006

Qui-Gon Joe wrote:

Put me in the column of people who don't understand the Raiden hatred either.

I think the Raiden hatred comes at least partially from the way Konami kept him a secret.  People expected to be Snake, and Raiden is no Snake.  I didn't hate him per se, but I thought he was pretty weak.


Qui-Gon Joe wrote:

As for the villains...

{The following is strictly from a story and character perpsective, not from a gameplay perspective}

The Boss and Ocelot were very good, but most of the rest were extremely pointless, especially The Pain and The Fury.  I'm kind of in the middle on The End.  He was creative and different, but I didn't really like him all that much either.

Angela Mar 27, 2006

XLord007 wrote:

The Boss and Ocelot were very good, but most of the rest were extremely pointless, especially The Pain and The Fury.

I'll admit that the Cobras might have benefited from a bit of backstory, to flesh out their origins.  But then, I began viewing it from a perspective that Darkheim once told me, and then just embraced it.  I quote:

"I think I appreciate the fact that Kojima just went all-out twisted carnivale with his villains this time around. In MGS2, it felt like he was being coy about the freak-show factor of his more sinister characters (except maybe Vamp). Kinda like he was riding the fence about either telling an espionage story and just making whacked-out super-villains."

That sort of extravagant quality the Cobras possessed just made it easier to accept that that these guys are real baddies - and that you just want to go in there and kick their asses. ;P

Idolores Apr 13, 2006

Jay wrote:

I agree about the villains - the telling thing about Vamp is that many of his traits were meant for the Chinaman character. When he was dropped, Vamp inherited his water abilities regardless of whether they fit or not. It was a clumsy move in my opinion.

I did like the old sniper guy in MGS3 though...

"Chinaman"? That's not the preferred nomenclature. "Asian American", please.

Man, if anyone gets that reference, I'll cry tears of joy.

Jay Apr 13, 2006 (edited Apr 13, 2006)

...I don't get the reference...

Edit: Googled it. I so should have got that.

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