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Bill C. Apr 6, 2006

I'd have to look it up, but supposedly--waaaaaay back before Xenosaga Episode I came out--there were originally to be five or six chapters.

Qui-Gon Joe Apr 6, 2006

Not necessarily the last Xenosaga game ever, but this one is going to wrap up the story of Shion and co.

shdwrlm3 Apr 6, 2006

I'd have to look it up, but supposedly--waaaaaay back before Xenosaga Episode I came out--there were originally to be five or six chapters.

The Xenogears Perfect Works mentioned six chapters or episodes, with Xenogears being episode 5. It'd be a shame they won't be able to remake Xenogears if they end with Episode III. Then again, didn't the main scenario writer quit? I suppose it'd be hard to continue the six chapter story if it's not her vision behind it. I mean, it's not like people play the series for the battle system, right? wink

And while on the subject of Xenosaga, it looks like Xenosaga I+II for DS isn't doing too well:
http://gamesarefun.com/news.php?newsid=6185

Kirin Lemon Apr 7, 2006

shdwrlm3 wrote:

The Xenogears Perfect Works mentioned six chapters or episodes, with Xenogears being episode 5. It'd be a shame they won't be able to remake Xenogears if they end with Episode III.

Have you played any of the Xenosaga titles?  It was pretty clear that the story it was already going in a completely different direction than anything the Xenogears Perfect Works book described.  A remake or re-imagining of the Xenogears storyline would never have happened, anyways.  Quite a shame, though.

SonicPanda Apr 7, 2006

History repeats itself. Shenmue got truncated. The person behind the Oddworld 'Quintology' threw up their hands and quit halfway through. I don't think the El Dorado series in Japan saw through to the end either.
Occasionally a determined publisher will plan a sprawling multi-game saga and reach its conclusion without mishap (.hack, for instance), but it's definitely more the exception than the rule.
Not too broken up about this one, though. My time playing Episode I is the closest I ever came to junking a disc in disgust. All that saved it was that it wasn't actually my copy.

Wanderer Apr 7, 2006

I didn't mind the first Xenosaga but in retrospect, it was painfully unmemorable. I can't remember a damn thing from it... which didn't help me when I tried to start the second game in the series and got very confused.

Qui-Gon Joe Apr 7, 2006

El Dorado Gate did have all seven episodes released, as far as I can tell.  It's just that past episode II, they're all completely impossible to find.  I saw one copy of the 4th one exactly once, but never again.  I think there's a really rare boxed set with all seven as well.

As for Xenosaga, I've felt that the story has been very well done and I like a lot of the characters, but combat and gameplay in general is pretty terrible.  And then there's the whole in-game music from Episode II, which actually physically hurt me, I think.  I've never actually turned my sound down during a game before because the music is so terrible.  At least Suikoden III's soundtrack is laughably bad as opposed to vomit-inducing bad.

I still say that Monolith Soft and Tri Crescendo need to get together the people who wrote Xenosaga and the people who designed the battle system in Baten Kaitos and make one super game that has a deep story and a fun battle system.  As it stands, though, Monolith has been responsible for having only one or the other in its games thus far.

XLord007 Apr 7, 2006

First, it's believed that the Xenosaga series fits into that Perfect Works timeline, but the whole Xenosaga series allegedly takes place before the crashing of the ship that starts XG, so any XS episode 5 wouldn't be a remake of XG anyway.

Concerning the games themselves, I absolutely loved XS1.  It was great all around.  Was it as good as XG?  No, but it's still one of the best RPGs I've played this generation.  XS2 is another matter.  Pretty much everything took a big hit: story, music, and gameplay were are drastically inferior to XS1.  I can only hope XS3 is better.

Specifically addressing the music in XS2: while I didn't think Hosoe's music was very good, some of it was catchy, and I liked it a lot more than the drivel that Kajiura phoned-in for the cinema scenes.

Dragon God Apr 7, 2006

XLord007 wrote:

Specifically addressing the music in XS2: while I didn't think Hosoe's music was very good, some of it was catchy, and I liked it a lot more than the drivel that Kajiura phoned-in for the cinema scenes.

Wow, something we can actually agree on. While I fail to understand the hatred that Joe has for it(I'm biased, but Suiko III was totally crap-tastic, while Hosoe's music in XS II had actually more variety than Kajiura's sorry excuses for FMV music), at least Hosoe got back into being awesome with Under Defeat and Ibara.

Zane Apr 7, 2006

XLord007 wrote:

Specifically addressing the music in XS2: while I didn't think Hosoe's music was very good, some of it was catchy, and I liked it a lot more than the drivel that Kajiura phoned-in for the cinema scenes.

Quoted for truth.

Qui-Gon Joe Apr 7, 2006

I liked Kajiura's music for the cutscenes quite a lot.  At least they seemed appropriate for the game, which Hosoe's stuff did not.  I think that was my biggest problem with it... Xenogears and Xenosaga both had that pseudo-ethnic-y sound that Mitsuda gave to it, and Kajiura's stuff is stylistically similar to that.  Hosoe's stuff is way, way different and doesn't fit the game at all.  The only tracks he did for the soundtrack that I cared for much at all were the Ormus music and the mech battle theme.

Also, Zane, if you "quote for truth" on an opinion and have no actual contribution to the conversation, your post isn't worth the time that it took me to scroll past it.

Zane Apr 7, 2006

Qui-Gon Joe wrote:

Also, Zane, if you "quote for truth" on an opinion and have no actual contribution to the conversation, your post isn't worth the time that it took me to scroll past it.

Easy there, big guy.

I was agreeing with XLord007, and instead of typing up another whole post about how awful and generic Kaijura's music is in XSII, I deemed that the quick QFT post would be better; something that's now obviously a moot point. I'm sure if I agreed with you and quoted something positive you said about her music you wouldn't be posting back while trying to call me out for not "contributing".

Yuvraj Apr 7, 2006

Qui-Gon Joe wrote:

Also, Zane, if you "quote for truth" on an opinion and have no actual contribution to the conversation, your post isn't worth the time that it took me to scroll past it.

I would'nt have imagined that you would say such a thing, Qui Con. He isn't allowed to say he shares someone else's opinion (which contradicts yours...)?? This sounds more like you felt insulted, which ofcourse can happen, but no needs for personal assaults. Cheer up dude.

XLord007 Apr 7, 2006

Qui-Gon Joe wrote:

I think that was my biggest problem with it... Xenogears and Xenosaga both had that pseudo-ethnic-y sound that Mitsuda gave to it, and Kajiura's stuff is stylistically similar to that.

I agree that Kajiura's XS2 stuff is in the same style, but only in that she is attempting to follow Mistuda's style, and in my opinion, her attempt failed miserably.  Her compositions for XS2 are empty and soulless, and they leave a flat, "if only" aftertaste.  I don't know if she simply half-assed this particular work or if she's just a flat-out hack, but her XS2 music seemed pointedly uninspired to me.  Although I'm sure it's too late for this considering how far along XS3 is, I wish Takahashi would smooth things over with Mitsuda so that the Xeno series can return to its former aural glory.

Dais Apr 7, 2006

Qui-Gon Joe wrote:

El Dorado Gate did have all seven episodes released, as far as I can tell.  It's just that past episode II, they're all completely impossible to find.  I saw one copy of the 4th one exactly once, but never again.  I think there's a really rare boxed set with all seven as well.

It was cut short in it's own way - http://www.rpgamer.com/news/Q1-2001/031301a.html

Abridged!

Qui-Gon Joe Apr 7, 2006 (edited Apr 7, 2006)

In reply to the general accusations that I'm just being snippy because it's an opinion I disagree with, no - I do have a tendency to dislike very short posts of hate regardless of who posts them and in regards to what.  Heck, I'd prefer if someone wanted to back me up on disliking Xenosaga II's in-game score or Suikoden III's music that they don't simply quote me.  Anyway, sorry if I horribly offended you, Zane, that's never what I'm attempting to do on these forums.  >_<

Actually, the main thing is that I want to know WHY there's all the Kajiura hate, and maybe some of the people who constantly rip on her can explain that to me.  Being that I have no music composition talent myself, I don't think I have any right to refer to anyone as a hack, regardless of whether or not I like his or her music.  I don't understand how anyone else can, either, unless the person blatantly copies someone else's work.  I *don't* think that's what Kajiura did for Xensoaga, either - her work is definitely more in her own normal style than in Mitsuda's, but what I was saying was that her normal style fits the game better than Hosoe's stuff.  If the argument is now going to become that all of her stuff sounds the same, I would say that there's at least as much variety in the work I've heard of hers as there is in post-Xenogears Mitsuda or Sakuraba over the course of his entire career.

I wonder sometimes with this kind of discussion if I'm just missing some sort of magical ability other people have, where I am incapable of telling when music is bad.  Does it fail on a technical level or something?  I've never taken music courses - do the melodies and harmonies not match or has she copied directly from classical music or something?  Because I enjoy music by her, does it mean I'm wrong?  Should I start referring to every composer I dislike as a hack?  Like, you know, generally every hip hop artist?  I mean, normally I like to let people like what they like and acknowledge that it's simply not my thing, but maybe I should start attacking the abilities of the people who make that kind of music instead.  tongue

Edit: Lastly!  Holy crap, Dais, thanks for the link.  I totally didn't remember that it was originally supposed to be 24 episodes.  And considering each one cost something like 3500 yen (I think?), that was a LOT of money Capcom was assuming people would play for essentially one long game.  O.o

GoldfishX Apr 7, 2006

Qui-Gon Joe wrote:

I wonder sometimes with this kind of discussion if I'm just missing some sort of magical ability other people have, where I am incapable of telling when music is bad.  Does it fail on a technical level or something?  I've never taken music courses - do the melodies and harmonies not match or has she copied directly from classical music or something?  Because I enjoy music by her, does it mean I'm wrong?  Should I start referring to every composer I dislike as a hack?  Like, you know, generally every hip hop artist?  I mean, normally I like to let people like what they like and acknowledge that it's simply not my thing, but maybe I should start attacking the abilities of the people who make that kind of music instead.  tongue

I think what throws people off is you have a couple of people who legitimately think that way and can musically justify it and then a bunch of followers who just simply don't like it/are indifferent towards it and want to sound like they know what they're talking about. So it ends up looking like a wall of knowledgable one-sided opinions. If you stick to what you think/believe, you'll be fine. 

Me personally, I wonder as well what the problem a lot of people seem to have with the Xenosaga 2 OST release. Granted, it's hardly my ideal listening experience and I'm hardly a fan of it (and the series in general), but the only true complaint I've seen against it is that it sounds like a lot of Kajiura's previous works and really nothing else...Nothing specific to really justify the overall dislike of it. For what's essentially a collection of cut scene music, it turned out better than I expected.

My thought: A lot of people are just annoyed Mitsuda didn't come back.

Datschge Apr 7, 2006

Qui-Gon Joe wrote:

If the argument is now going to become that all of her stuff sounds the same, I would say that there's at least as much variety in the work I've heard of hers as there is in post-Xenogears Mitsuda or Sakuraba over the course of his entire career.

Questioning people's cheap shots by referring to other cheap shots, what does that gain?

Qui-Gon Joe Apr 7, 2006

Datschge wrote:

Questioning people's cheap shots by referring to other cheap shots, what does that gain?

You're just looking for ways to be antagonistic now.  I'm not saying there's anything wrong with either Mitsuda or Sakuraba there - in fact I very much like most of their work.  I'm just trying to grasp why it's okay for some composers to go with a style that works for them and not for others to.

Yes, GoldfishX, I have definitely considered the possibility that the people who don't like it are just annoyed that Mitsuda didn't return.  I was too, at first, until I gave the Kajiura (who I hadn't heard of at the time) a fair chance.

Datschge Apr 7, 2006

I was (wanted to, whatever) more referring to the fact one can't argue about opinions (or am I alone with that particular opinion?).

I guess I should just stop post 2ch style Dais-yfied (Daisy-fied? ha) looking short msgs I tend to post on boards like these...

Qui-Gon Joe Apr 7, 2006

What you just said there, Datschge, is sort of my usual point to begin with.  As opposed to your message about the cheap shots, which seemed more wanting to start an argument than prevent them.  tongue

Regardless, I'm through with this particular point of conversation, but am definitely still interested in hearing justification for people saying Kajiura's a hack.  smile

Idolores Apr 8, 2006

Kirin Lemon wrote:
shdwrlm3 wrote:

The Xenogears Perfect Works mentioned six chapters or episodes, with Xenogears being episode 5. It'd be a shame they won't be able to remake Xenogears if they end with Episode III.

Have you played any of the Xenosaga titles?  It was pretty clear that the story it was already going in a completely different direction than anything the Xenogears Perfect Works book described.  A remake or re-imagining of the Xenogears storyline would never have happened, anyways.  Quite a shame, though.

Agreed on that last part. Didn't the director of Xenogears originally state that he felt Xenogears in its PSX form was horribly flawed? I remember time restraints being mentioned, and that he wanted to re-do the game from scratch or something at one point.

In any event, as much as I loved 'Gears (and I did, one of my all-time favorite RPG's), I'd have to agree that it had some serious flaws. I would do many illegal things to see the game remade in full for next gen systems (and make a goddamn toy line already, even if it's in model kit form! Does anyone else here want a Weltall 2 figure as much as I do?). Fortunately, with buzz going around that FFVII is going to be remade for PS2, maybe 'Gears will get its' chance to shine once more? I can only hope . . .

Qui-Gon Joe Apr 8, 2006

Idolores wrote:

Does anyone else here want a Weltall 2 figure as much as I do?

That'd be quite cool, though the one game-related toys I would do anything to see made are little models of the airships from Skies of Arcadia.  wink

bluefish Apr 8, 2006

XLord007 wrote:

I wish Takahashi would smooth things over with Mitsuda so that the Xeno series can return to its former aural glory.

I don't think this can happen as I don't think he is involved with the project anymore. IIRC he and his wife left during Episode II's development because he somehow lost his position as director, then the rest of the team axed like 75% or some huge amount of the script he and his wife had written for the game and rewrote it themselves, and then TT was sort of nudged out of the company. After this happened is when I think it was truncated to be 3 episodes, while it was originally going to be 6. I'm not sure how you lose control of your own brain child, but something must've been really screwed up internally tongue

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