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SonicPanda Jul 2, 2008

Jay wrote:

The loss of the accents was a disappointment to me and a symptom of a larger issue - the weakening of the characters. I have no idea what the reasoning behind dropping the accents was for Twin Snakes (I didn't even know that was counted as a proper MGS game and MGS4 has now confused this by referencing both that and the original).

I took the mingling to be that the PSX MGS is canon, but with Twin Snakes' cast, since (Portable Ops spoiler) Null's voice sounds much closer to Rob Paulson's Ninja than Greg Eagles'.

Oh, and Angela...I went with the name 'Little John' for its Snatcher connection. It's Gibson's assistant, in the same way Metal Gear Mk.II is Gillian's. If Kojima is planning a sly reference to that as well, I wouldn't be surprised.

Ashley Winchester Jul 2, 2008

SonicPanda wrote:

I'm starting to get a bit annoyed by the fatalistic tone of the narrative. Yes, I have a good idea of how this'll turn out, but to hear nearly every character in the game talk about death like it's either the only valid release from one's problems and/or the reward for a job well done...

Know how you feel, this is what annoyed me about Mega Man X5. There were serveral points thoughout that hinted towards simular crap, forshadowing the ending - which did work until Capcom got greedy and had to slap Mega Man X6 together.

SonicPanda Jul 5, 2008

A wee bit more progress...past the first boss of Act 5 and, presumably, staring the end in the face. You know the drill by now, here we go.

Ray fight was a little surprising, and kinda cool. I managed to get by it on the first try, but only just. The close-quarters stuff was more fun, but I was getting stomped pretty badly for awhile. So I played keep away and rapid-missiled his ass. I know, I know...chickenshit.

Fox...DIE! "Think again!" *stupid grin on my part*

I understand Liquid considers Outer Haven impregnable and his ticket to domination, but the Neo-Rushmore decoration with the eyepatched replacements? A bit much, I'm afraid.

Speaking of Haven, how the holy hopping HELL did Raiden survive that? Grey Fox can be believably squished to pulp by Rex's foot, but Raiden can be crushed by a gigantic submersible carrier crashing into the shore (minus an arm and with his sword plunged through his foot, no less!) and live to tell the tale? WHAT? On another note, I wonder if Sunny's arm dropped off when he did that.

Act 5 opening freeflow thoughts:
Mei Ling doesn't seem to command much respect from the group, but at least they weren't peeping while she was on the floor or anything.
Still don't know what Drebin's angle is. I imagine that's to come.
Otacon's got his specs back.
Naomi was there to kill Otacon, for pity's sake. Quit trying to make her sound noble, you morons.
"Suicide mission? Oh, that's for me. 'Cause I have a death wish and all." (*sigh*)

The Mantis fight was just plain awesome. Even the sound design and musical blending was perfect. Actually executing it was rather difficult, especially since A, the first time I got a doll to drop I didn't know I was expected to grab it, and B, I got the Sorrow Doll first, which doesn't do jack. And hooray for finally working in motion controls! I've been wondering to this point why they hadn't been implemented for say, when you're being pinned by Mini-Gekkos and you need to shake loose. If this is the only such implementation in the game, I could totally see the game being ported to the 360. Or rather I could, if it wasn't for the post-battle cutscene. You know the one I mean...

"Vibration is BAAAACK!"

Claiming this now: that scene was put in the game just for me. I've been saying for 10 years now he was the most awesome thing in the whole series, and now he proves he's the baddest, most lethal mofo around even nine years after he's DEAD. I've heard from people who've been there that the final battle's a letdown...I don't know if that's true or not, but right now, I don't care. Because after that whole Mantis affair, I've already HAD my money shot. For all the bitching I do about fanservice, when it hits me right, it hits me HARD.

Sunday night's probably my next best chance to play, as I've heard the endgame takes awhile. I'll probably come home, nuke a little dinner and then...well, maybe it's best not to make that joke.

Amazingu Jul 5, 2008 (edited Jul 5, 2008)

SonicPanda wrote:


"Vibration is BAAAACK!"

Actually, only if you're using a Dualshock 3. I only have the normal non-vibrating controller and when Mantis tries to pull his old stunt, obviously nothing happens, and he goes something like "oh no, my powers have been taken away!" or some such thing.

Anyway, I for one thought the final battle kicked total ass.
It was far too easy though...

Angela Jul 5, 2008

Amazingu wrote:

Actually, only if you're using a Dualshock 3. I only have the normal non-vibrating controller and when Mantis tries to pull his old stunt, obviously nothing happens, and he goes something like "oh no, my powers have been taken away!" or some such thing.

That's correct.  I've got both.... controllers, and if you're using the regular Six-Axis, he exclaims "No vibration?!!"  Which is immediately followed up by another MGS1 throwback, where a Naomi voiceover goes, "No massages for you, then."  I actually liked the non-vibration response more, since in addition to the memory card flub, it adds another layer to Mantis' new incompetence.  Sonic, if you want to see the other response next time around, just turn off the vibration feature on your Dual Shock 3 via the PS Button

SonicPanda wrote:

Ray fight was a little surprising, and kinda cool. I managed to get by it on the first try, but only just. The close-quarters stuff was more fun, but I was getting stomped pretty badly for awhile. So I played keep away and rapid-missiled his ass. I know, I know...chickenshit.

I relied on the laser most, used the missiles for a secondary, and the gattling gun for a quick stun.  But the most fun thing to do is constantly rush-ram at RAY with the X button and abuse close-quarters.  Either way, the battle was one hell of a spectacle; getting to see these two iconic war machines duking it out with each other was, for me, one of the pinnacle highlights of the series.

SonicPanda wrote:

Fox...DIE! "Think again!" *stupid grin on my part*

It was a hoot when Liquid was running off toward the ocean, turning back and taunting Snake.  Like some immature kid, going "Nyah nyah, ya can't catch me!"

SonicPanda wrote:

Speaking of Haven, how the holy hopping HELL did Raiden survive that? Grey Fox can be believably squished to pulp by Rex's foot, but Raiden can be crushed by a gigantic submersible carrier crashing into the shore (minus an arm and with his sword plunged through his foot, no less!) and live to tell the tale? WHAT?

Yeah, that's kind of what I meant by the whole offsetting of the fatalistic tone; at this point, it just seemed like the natural conclusion that Raiden would bite the dust.  I'm still on the fence with this call; in what could've surmounted to one of the most noble moments in MGS4 is all nullified when in the next act Snake asks, "How's Raiden?"  To which Otacon replies, "He'll be fine."  What, what?  The ending sequence is the only thing keeping me from calling this complete bollocks.  Would love to hear your thoughts on Raiden once you've finished the game.

SonicPanda wrote:

Mei Ling doesn't seem to command much respect from the group,

Most short women don't.  I can attest to that.

SonicPanda wrote:

but at least they weren't peeping while she was on the floor or anything.

'Cept for Johnny, of course.

SonicPanda wrote:

Naomi was there to kill Otacon, for pity's sake. Quit trying to make her sound noble, you morons.

Easy there, tiger.  Though I've gotta admit that even when it was all over and explained, I still couldn't wash the taste of ambivalence I had toward Naomi.  If Kojima's intention was to write up a character who you're supposed to deliberately despise for all the sins she's committed, then he's certainly succeeded.  And what was up with the whole "feeling-up" of Vamp??  If that was supposed to be an act, it was a damned good one.

SonicPanda wrote:

The Mantis fight was just plain awesome. Even the sound design and musical blending was perfect. Actually executing it was rather difficult, especially since A, the first time I got a doll to drop I didn't know I was expected to grab it, and B, I got the Sorrow Doll first, which doesn't do jack. And hooray for finally working in motion controls! I've been wondering to this point why they hadn't been implemented for say, when you're being pinned by Mini-Gekkos and you need to shake loose.

After the Octopus fight, Mantis' was definitely my favorite.  I grabbed the Mantis doll first and finished the fight -- only to end up kicking myself for not grabbing The Sorrow first.  (The Sorrow does carry over on subsequent playthroughs)  This fight is pretty tough on the higher difficulty levels as I've just learned; Snake will actually DROP the doll if he's hit, where Mantis will then attempt to swoop in and pick it up again.

SonicPanda wrote:

If this is the only such implementation in the game, I could totally see the game being ported to the 360. Or rather I could, if it wasn't for the post-battle cutscene.

But did you miss like the five dozen other Sony references placed in the game?  Snake using a PS3 controller to function the Mk. II/III?  Sunny playing on a PSP?  The Ericsson phone?  Otacon's comment on the PS3 and dual layer disc?  Perhaps most crucially of all are the conversations that you can have with Rose/Campbell during the Mantis battle, where they brought up the various ways they were able to beat Mantis before, but now can't.  "That's not going to work here!  You just can't press the PS button on the PS3 controller to change ports now!"   

SonicPanda wrote:

Sunday night's probably my next best chance to play, as I've heard the endgame takes awhile. I'll probably come home, nuke a little dinner and then...well, maybe it's best not to make that joke.

Make a big dinner; it is a lengthy ending.  I thanked the stars that there's a Pause feature now.

Nekobo Jul 5, 2008

I got to interview David Hayter at Anime Expo on Wednesday. He was really cool. When we were testing out his mic, he said in his Snake voice "Colonel, can you hear me?"

I asked him which actor would he pick to be Snake in a Metal Gear movie and he chose...Hugh Jackman and Viggio Mortensen.

He just started playing MGS4...he's currently playing Act II.

His favorite Metal Gear game is MGS3...for now.

He's slated to the write the Lost Planet screenplay.

I also got him to yell out "CRAAABB BATTTTLLEEEE." big_smile

SonicPanda Jul 6, 2008

Angela wrote:

But did you miss like the five dozen other Sony references placed in the game?  Snake using a PS3 controller to function the Mk. II/III?  Sunny playing on a PSP?  The Ericsson phone?  Otacon's comment on the PS3 and dual layer disc?  Perhaps most crucially of all are the conversations that you can have with Rose/Campbell during the Mantis battle, where they brought up the various ways they were able to beat Mantis before, but now can't.  "That's not going to work here!  You just can't press the PS button on the PS3 controller to change ports now!"

Hmm...only one of those I caught was the Dual-Layer spiel during the disc-switching skit. All the others are news to me. I admit I kinda slacked off on my Codecking (?), but come on...the only options were Otacon and Rose!

Nekobo wrote:

[David Hayter's] favorite Metal Gear game is MGS3...for now.

Good man. Did you happen to tell him that "David Hayter" turns into "Jockstrap Bison" on the online MGS Name Generator? I've always wondered how he'd respond to that.

...Kidding. I already know. "Bison?!...Jockstrap?! What the hellllll...."

Pellasos Jul 6, 2008

Jay wrote:

The loss of the accents was a disappointment to me and a symptom of a larger issue - the weakening of the characters. I have no idea what the reasoning behind dropping the accents was for Twin Snakes (I didn't even know that was counted as a proper MGS game and MGS4 has now confused this by referencing both that and the original).

The accents themselves aren't a huge deal but they helped give history, location and served to contribute to fleshing out the characters. Naomi's fit with her history. I can't remember her exact story in the original but I seem to remember Zimbabwe being in the story and some sort of British/Indian upbringing with even a reference to that being where her skin colour came from. But where is that skin colour now?

And the original artwork had tons of personality of course, for Naomi, Mei-Ling and Meryl and everyone else actually.

But, in MGS4, every female is turned into random sexy white American girl. It's like the only thing that was important to Kojima was that they had breasts and an ass. Now that's pretty important for me in a woman too, but I like a bit more to my characters and the MGS characters did have more at one point.

I like that Meryl is still ripped though.

thanks, those are exactly my feelings. i was especially dissapointed with naomi, as she doesnt match her old persona very much in voice,  model and of course, accent. its sad, but she is a like a completely different person in MGS4.

i also wish they would start using more of shinkawas artwork in-game, especially on the codec.

Jay Jul 9, 2008

I got the five 20th Anniversary figures and the Kubrick set (not including the hidden ones, which are overpriced yet rubbish). The figures are all excellent but what is weird with both sets is just what is not represented.

There are five figures - MGS2 Snake, MGS2 Raiden, MGS3 Snake, MGS4 Old Snake and MGS4 Old Snake in Octocamo. The last two are the same figures with a slightly different paint job and a different head. And yet MGS1 isn't represented in any way. Where's my MGS1 20th Anniversary Snake?

With the Kubricks, there's MGS1 Snake, MGS1 Ninja, MGS3 Snake (with excellent skull face paint), MGS4 Old Snake and MGS4 Raiden Ninja. But no MGS2. Weird.

SonicPanda Jul 11, 2008

Well, I did it. I've a big behemoth of a post percolating, but I can't finish it tonight. Next time, sorry.

Angela Jul 11, 2008

SonicPanda wrote:

Well, I did it. I've a big behemoth of a post percolating, but I can't finish it tonight. Next time, sorry.

Bring it on, baby.

I'm just about wrapping up my own impressions on my Journal.  It took a heck of a lot longer to write up than I figured, largely because I've been playing the game so damned much.  I'm on my seventh playthrough, and I'm STILL discovering new stuff.  Like, in Act 1, did you know you can actually..... shoot down those helicopters that's way, way, WAY off in the distance just before reaching Liquid's camp?  The FIM-92A does the trick.  A crazy amount of gameplay possibilities open up once you're able to carry all your weapons over.

Pellasos Jul 11, 2008

seventh already? now thats what i call hardcore! im on my third + ive been playing MGO. its fun as long as you can enjoy lag-free playing.

SonicPanda Jul 13, 2008

OK, let's dance.

The secret to Johnny's immunity was a big ol' DUH moment for me, and I'm more than a little sympathetic, considering I'm a needlephobe myself. Also, I wouldn't have guessed Kojima would've seen Mr. & Mrs. Smith, but then I wouldn't have guessed I would've either (my sister insisted, you see). Amusing just the same.

A room full of a few dozen Mini-Gekkos made me swear profusely. Care to guess what a room of infinitely-respawning Mini-Gekkos does? I'm lucky I still have a controller.

Putting aside, for now, the question of how a half-dead ninja sneaks onto a battleship undetected (after the only window of oppurtunity has passed, no less) with no frickin' arms and a sword in his goddamned teeth...I was a little disappointed I couldn't memory-flash Volgin chanting "Kuwabara, Kuwabara" when he began his frog-fry session. Who's afraid of a little thunder, indeed?

*taptaptaptaptaptap - CRAMP! ARRGH - *pause* (massage massage)....I hate these spazzy bits so much...*unpause-taptaptaptaptap*....

It's a bit humbling in retrospect to find the much-vaunted FINAL MISSION amounting to little more than chaperoning a robot so that the world can instead be saved by a bipolar physician, the world's weepiest scientist, and a shut-in mathematical savant who needs instruction on how to make a three-minute egg. But then, maybe it was intended to be emasculating. Mission Accomplished, then.

FOXALIVE? Oh God, the cheesiness. Bless it so. Metal Gear wouldn't be the same without it, honestly. Naomi continues to be a bitch from beyond the grave with her recording's hand gesture, surely for no other reason that to make Otacon cry again. I hope one of Sniper's dogs pees in her hair.

Regarding Metal Gear Saga vs Main Theme: Saga worked better for the pre-final battle beat-up scene, but the Main Theme was sorely missed in the final credits. I don't understand why its similarity to an old Russian piece is a big issue; copyright on that stuff ran out long ago, and there's a number of pieces in say, Final Fantasy games, that are culled - uncredited - from others' works (The Princess' Temptation from FF2 being a direct rip from Swan Lake, f'rinstance) to nobody's outrage. Maybe they'll put the theme back where it belongs for MGS4: Subjugation?

The battle itself wasn't what I was hoping for - my internal wish was to face a one-handed Ocelot free from Liquid challenge Snake to a shooting match as Mk-iii tried to enter the code with an utterly kickass remix of MG2's Theme of Solid Snake kicked in - but it certainly served its purpose on a fanservice level. That said, the awkwardness of the controls returned with a vengeance. If I'm playing a fighting game, I'm not mapping the attack button to the shoulder trigger. Licky got a few free licks in while I came to grips with the buttons all over again. I was especially amused by the recreation, at least in part, of the WIG CQC rumble from MGS3's finale.

Liquid Pet Peeve
----------------
Me: "I ruined your plan."
Liquid: "Haha! This is exactly what I wanted!"
Me: "Crap!"

Me: "I ruined your new plan too."
Liquid: "You've only made things easier for me!"
Me: "DAMMIT!"

Me: "HA! I KILLED YOU!"
Liquid: "Everything's gone according to plan! You're pretty good ('pretty good' 'pretty....good'), but I win!" *dies*
Me: "OH COME ON!"

Postscript
----------
(Otacon: "Liquid's wrong, we won!")
(Me: "HA! In your dead face!")

Regarding the hand gesture, I've just now come to realize that if you pull your gesturing hands in toward your chest, the positioning of the fingers mirrors the way one most likely holds a PlayStation controller. Coincidence, or standard Kojima nudge-and-a-winkery?

No Drebin points? Aww...

I was so sure (so sure) Mei Ling was connected to these events. The philosophical quotes, the emphatic certainty with which she asserted thinking computers were inevitable in MGS1, the fact that the Patriots used her technology to spook Raiden...I was so sure. Well, sorry, Ms. Ling.

Only Meryl would pull a gun on her dad on her wedding day. And hey, those dead guys! They aren't dead! How nice for them (although I'd like to know what they were doing for those last two acts).

Raiden's got a new body (with an eerily familiar barcode on the arm), no doubt from Dr. Ellen Madnar. Little John's cute, and Rose's confession makes herself and Campbell more respectable. Wonders be. Of course the new Raiden has to be a wet blanket, but at least he pulls his head out by the end.

A few thoughts on Raiden and MGS2 in general: I feel a little bad at how things turned out for them, honestly. I'm the kind of sonuvabitch who lapped that fourth-wall stuff up. While it's nice to have a logical explanation for, say, why Vamp can walk off a bullet to the head, I thought it was ballsier when the answer to the player was, 'well how many times have you been shot in the head so far, pal? I hate to say this, but you really stink at this game.'
Same goes with Raiden - he essentially starts out as the player does, under the delusion that playing through a bit of VR as Solid Snake MAKES you Solid Snake, and that not questioning things too deeply is a small price for the thrill of victory and forward-progress. Aside from the awarding of the sword from Snake (that introduces a Big Boss-Grey Fox parallel), the whole point of Raiden's blank-slate character is that Raiden only becomes his own person when he literally throws the player away (and kudos to Kojima for not making Raiden at all playable here, the cries of players more than willing to play with him now are a delicious schadenfreude sundae).
And yet...here's Raiden, the same Raiden who - bright-eyed, hopeful, and freed from machines' machinations - swore he wasn't going to be anyone else's puppet anymore five years prior, re-entering the fray as a more blatant Grey Fox analogue with a gravelly voice, an abundance of machinery, and some kind of death wish. Yes, this is what some fans wanted, but these are primarily the fans who either didn't get MGS2, or didn't like it because they take their gaming selves far too seriously. Myself, I had just hoped he'd been living happily in the interum, that he wouldn't have to be a slave to players' whims. Maybe that'll happen now, who knows? *whew* Moving on...

Interesting that it seems that in the intro Snake wasn't saluting The Boss' grave, but Big Boss'.

Should've seen the Rat Patrol thing a mile off. I play with anagrams all the time.

And now, Big Boss. Before getting into the scene itself, an open question. I was initially sold on the pyx BB being BB because A, it was badly burned as BB had been at MG2's end, and B, EVA mentioned that Zero had recovered the body straight from Zanzibar. Now that it turns out to have been Solidus, does that mean the BB of MG1&2 is actually Solidus? How many Solidi (haaa...'Solid Eye') are there, anyway?

But now, the scene. Hell of a scene. The bit with the Boss-like disarming and 'Let it go,' it's a beautiful thing.

The end of Zero seemed a bit vindictive and pointless, to be honest. By this point, the Patriots have lost their teeth, and Zero didn't seem to know Big Boss from Adam, so BB's speech on why Zero needed to die rang a bit false. But I'm willing to accept that visceral coldness is what seperates Naked from Solid. This being Zero however, means that all the men I thought he was previously in the series - Bloggs or Ames especially - weren't him. So how'd they get into the Patriot circle, then?

I'm a bit troubled by the truth behind Liquid Ocelot. Prior to viewing the ending, I was going to classify Liqelot as the weakest antagonist in the series. The Liquid on display was several degrees less interesting than the insidious and self-piteous Liquid MGS1 offered, and the Ocelot on display...well, wasn't. On display. The revelation that there was no Liquid post-MGS1, only Ocelot brainwashed to be Liquid, only makes it more regrettable. As I said above, I didn't want Liquid in the end, I wanted Ocelot. He's always been the most fascinating character in the story, and to find his carefully-crafted personality willfully snuffed outright for the sake of do a more thuggish Bowery-Bum Liquid impersonation seems a disservice to both of them. It could just be me, though.

In the end though, it's just gratifying to see these two characters at ease with each other. Especially where Snake helps BB with his last cigar. Touching stuff, and made up for a lot of the preceding hours' nihilistic gloom.

And finally, a post-credits convo that doesn't cast a heavy shadow on the worth of my victory. It's about time.

So...did I like it? Bear with me here. This was the first Metal Gear game I'd played where it was difficult to enjoy as I was enjoying it. To borrow a Simpsons analogy, working toward reaching the conclusion felt like casting aside the Stone of Shame, only to be rewarded with the larger Stone of Triumph. You're supposed to not want to do it.
It's a recurring theme in the series, of course - MGS1 asks why you, as Snake, continue to fight (play) even when it's been revealed that most everyone has lied to you; MGS2 says that the S3 Plan succeeds simply because the player, as Raiden, continues toward the end without acknowledging the past, in other words, getting fed up with the parallels with the preceding chapter and quitting the game outright was presented as the better response - but not until MGS3 did the idea of not quitting the mission gain its nobility. MGS4 spends roughly the entire game dangling the notion that The End is Going to Suck For Everybody, and then rewards those who see it through with a sunny forecast (haaa).
So yes, in the end I did like it, but even as I was finishing up the final battle, I wasn't certain I could say so. The game was good, no question, but it certainly felt like it would be more respected than enjoyed, a kind of heroic bleak memoir you recognize the quality of, but can't bring yourself to re-read. Future playthroughs will be favorably colored by the pleasant conclusion provided (and the ability to skip every scene Naomi is in and not miss out on story!), but the memories of the initial dread will be hard to shake.

It's an interesting legacy. MGS4 will be remembered, I think, as the game its fans wanted to play, but didn't look forward to finishing.

Final word: Yes I liked it.

P.S. But MGS3's still the best.

Jay Jul 13, 2008

Just on the MGS Main Theme - that Russian piece was composed in 1974 and is well and truly in copyright.

SonicPanda Jul 13, 2008

Jay wrote:

Just on the MGS Main Theme - that Russian piece was composed in 1974 and is well and truly in copyright.

Huh. Well then, if paying out to Russia a small amount of cash for the right to use it is out of the question, I'd at least like the ability to put my own mp3s into the final fight. It's like going into Crystal Skull without Indy's Theme.

Angela Jul 13, 2008

SonicPanda wrote:

Putting aside, for now, the question of how a half-dead ninja sneaks onto a battleship undetected (after the only window of oppurtunity has passed, no less) with no frickin' arms and a sword in his goddamned teeth...I was a little disappointed I couldn't memory-flash Volgin chanting "Kuwabara, Kuwabara" when he began his frog-fry session. Who's afraid of a little thunder, indeed? 

The memory flash is an interesting thing.  Up to a certain point, and I can't remember exactly where - I believe it was when Drebin caught the Little Grey/Roswell connection - I had thought the flashes were strictly of Snake's memory.  But after seeing that, I suppose it really is mostly for the benefit of the player.

SonicPanda wrote:

FOXALIVE? Oh God, the cheesiness. Bless it so. Metal Gear wouldn't be the same without it, honestly. Naomi continues to be a bitch from beyond the grave with her recording's hand gesture, surely for no other reason that to make Otacon cry again. I hope one of Sniper's dogs pees in her hair.

Wow, such unbridled hatred.  I didn't exactly love her myself; not sure if I could ever shake that feeling of ambivalence I have toward the woman, but at least they've given the character a proper closure.  Still scratching my head over the Vamp touchy-feely scene.

SonicPanda wrote:

Regarding Metal Gear Saga vs Main Theme: Saga worked better for the pre-final battle beat-up scene, but the Main Theme was sorely missed in the final credits.

Agreed.  One other place I would've loved to see the Main Theme used was when...... Mei Ling asks, "Where's Snake?"  To which Otacon replies, "Who knows? That guy always keeps you waiting." (This was probably one of my most favorite series throwback lines, by the way.  "Kept you waiting, huh?  I'm at the sneaking point.")  Anyway, they play a variation of the Saga theme here, and as beautiful as it is, I couldn't help thinking it was the Main Theme that should've taken its place.  For all intents and purposes, the Main Theme *is* Snake's theme for the MGS series.  But then, I really liked that they included Metal Gear Saga as well, since it feels more like a theme designated to Big Boss. (The theme originating from MGS3 and all.)  That feeling couldn't come across more than when it plays as he shuts down Zero's life support.   

SonicPanda wrote:

The battle itself wasn't what I was hoping for - my internal wish was to face a one-handed Ocelot free from Liquid challenge Snake to a shooting match as Mk-iii tried to enter the code with an utterly kickass remix of MG2's Theme of Solid Snake kicked in - but it certainly served its purpose on a fanservice level.

See, now I disagree.  It's definitely off the charts on the fanservice level, no doubt, but I'm ecstatic that they decided to go with the barehanded duel take.  I'll just copy and paste from my Journal:

And last, we come to the final showdown between Snake and Liquid.  To be honest, I viewed this more as a duel between Snake and Ocelot.  Since MGS1, I've always dreamed of this very moment, the sequence where Snake and series antagonist Ocelot finally have it out.  And boy, it doesn't disappoint; what better way than a straight up mano e mano battle to the death?  It's here that the blending between gameplay and cutscenes come into full force, and it's nothing short of jawdropping. (Or is that "jawbreaking" in this case?)  The fight choreography is visceral and an absolute blast to watch; observant fans will notice that they've not only culled techniques from MGS3's CQC, but also a homage shot or two of the moves that were featured between Solid and Liquid in The Twin Snakes.  A sunset duel on top of Haven, the brothers screaming out each other's names in that series-familiar battle-cry roar, the "Metal Gear Saga" piece kicking in, the battered brothers mutually agreeing to stick themselves with the nanos, and those old-school MGS1 lifebars filling up on the screen...... god, this is the stuff that makes up a series fan's dreams right here.      

SonicPanda wrote:

And now, Big Boss. Before getting into the scene itself, an open question. I was initially sold on the pyx BB being BB because A, it was badly burned as BB had been at MG2's end, and B, EVA mentioned that Zero had recovered the body straight from Zanzibar. Now that it turns out to have been Solidus, does that mean the BB of MG1&2 is actually Solidus? How many Solidi (haaa...'Solid Eye') are there, anyway?

Just one Solidus.  It's an undeniable fact that Big Boss' body was burned in Zanzibar.  Zero recovers the body after that event, and keeps BB as a biomort.  MGS4's timeline comes rolling around, and Raiden acquires the body for EVA.  Recall that when EVA shows Snake the corpse in the van for the first time that the eye socket is empty on the right side - so that really was Big Boss' body.  But later during the scene on the river when the body burns up, the eye socket is empty on the left side: essentially Solidus.  Somewhere between the chase sequence and the scene at the Volta, BB's body must've been taken somewhere secure (supposedly by the resistance), and is kept secure until he's reanimated by the ending.  It's never explained, but I'm venturing a guess that sometime between the events of MGS2 and MGS4, Solidus' body was arranged to be incinerated, perhaps intentionally for the very purpose of looking like Big Boss.  Ocelot main intent in Act 3, then, was to not acquire the body of BB, but of Solidus, since he knew that he was genetically similar to Big Boss.   He knew the body that he burned on the river was Solidus, as evidenced by his line, "So long, Snake!" before shooting - with 'Snake,' of course, being Solidus Snake.

The big question, though, is if EVA knew?  Why would she hurl herself into the fire the way she did?

Jay Jul 13, 2008 (edited Jul 13, 2008)

Was Solidus ever a Snake? I can't remember MGS2 as much as I should and it was probably in that one...

Edit: Checked and, yes, apparently he was. Not quite sure why though given that it was a Foxhound designation. Though I guess much of the why in that didn't really come into play until MGS3.

By the way, I played through MGS1 again and it rocked.

SonicPanda Jul 15, 2008

Angela wrote:

Wow, such unbridled hatred.  I didn't exactly love her myself; not sure if I could ever shake that feeling of ambivalence I have toward the woman, but at least they've given the character a proper closure.  Still scratching my head over the Vamp touchy-feely scene.

You betcha.
First she had an affair with Ames to get into Fox-Hound, helped free Grey Fox and kill Para-Medic, fashion FOXDIE and alter it to her vindictive specifications, then starts to feel a little guilty, hoping for mercy and inspiring Snake to 'choose life, and live!'
Then she's sprung by Liquid and Vamp, presumably gets intimate with the knife-licker, and sets a trap to lure Otacon and Snake to rescue her, upon which she can inject Otacon with something (either to kill or control him). But upon learning Sunny was the one with the knowhow to decipher her message, she starts to feel a little guilty, and has sex with Otacon instead, inspiring him to ditch his glasses so she can achieve her end non-lethally.
THEN, after she sits by as Liquid does his thing AND snookies up to Vamp right in front of Snake and Otacon, she then upon Vamp's death tells Snake death is the way to go, professes a cancer that had never been brought up 'til now, and kills herself right in front of Otacon, in a truly tasteless gesture.
And finally, she left in her wake a message deliberately designed to invite sympathy and AGAIN makes Otacon feel like crap.
So her entire life boils down to tunnel vision for hurting others, the lack of scruples to trade sex to achieve it, and then, usually after it's too late to do anything about it, to have an attack of conscience, start to regret things and expect compassion. If that's supposed to be a sympathetic character...

Angela wrote:

The big question, though, is if EVA knew?  Why would she hurl herself into the fire the way she did?

Considering that she apparently didn't know about Ocelot's brain-training either, I'd say she was kept in the dark. Also, I've just recently learned that La-Li-Lu-Le-Lo is a shibboleth, a word that's unpronounceable in certain other languages, Chinese in this case. So she doesn't know about the switch, doesn't know about Ocelot, and the organization she belongs to has an alternate name specially designed to be unpronounceable to her? Yeah, she got boned.

There's other lingering things that I wonder about...like Sokolov, for instance. Portable Ops showed that he didn't die in MGS3, but he's certainly gone by MG2, since I'm pretty sure that that game's Gustava Heffner is his daughter with a new parent, since her in-game portrait strongly resembles the girl in the family portrait Sokolov handed over in MGS3. So what happened to him?

Also, - you can help with this, certainly - what IS the excuse they have for him not using CQC before?

Angela Jul 15, 2008 (edited Jul 15, 2008)

SonicPanda wrote:

Then she's sprung by Liquid and Vamp, presumably gets intimate with the knife-licker, and sets a trap to lure Otacon and Snake to rescue her, upon which she can inject Otacon with something (either to kill or control him). But upon learning Sunny was the one with the knowhow to decipher her message, she starts to feel a little guilty, and has sex with Otacon instead, inspiring him to ditch his glasses so she can achieve her end non-lethally.

Can't argue with some of your points, but the motives you described here might be a tad inaccurate.  Yes, she was sprung by Liquid - but it was for the sole purpose of delivering the FOXALIVE virus to Otacon.  Her awkward approaches in the Nomad wasn't to "bump off" Otacon, she was trying to decide whether she should give the virus to him or not. (Her awkwardness likely stemmed from the fact that she was falling for him).  But yeah, upon learning it was Sunny who was clever enough to decode her message, she ultimately decides to leave it with her.  The sexual encounter, then, was genuine; at least, as genuine as you believe Kojima wanted it to be.

SonicPanda wrote:

There's other lingering things that I wonder about...like Sokolov, for instance. Portable Ops showed that he didn't die in MGS3, but he's certainly gone by MG2, since I'm pretty sure that that game's Gustava Heffner is his daughter with a new parent, since her in-game portrait strongly resembles the girl in the family portrait Sokolov handed over in MGS3. So what happened to him?

You know, I never imagined a Heffner/Sokolov connection.  But, what about the age discrepancy?  How old was Gustava in MG2 again?  If she was Sokolov's daughter, she would have to have been at least 45 in 1999. (Given the portrait in MGS3 depicts her as being, say five or six years old?)  

SonicPanda wrote:

Also, - you can help with this, certainly - what IS the excuse they have for him not using CQC before?

Ah, they readily explain that in a very early codec sequence.  Snake always knew CQC, ever since Big Boss taught him way back when.  He never bothered to use it though, because "it didn't feel right" to use moves that were perpetrated by someone so treacherous.

This is actually an interesting dialog exchange, since they go on to explain that since BB's file on Virtuous Mission/Operation Snake Eater had only been declassified just recently and now everyone is adapting to CQC.  But as Snake puts it, everybody else's is a "cookie cutter imitation" - it's got nothing on the real deal which he had learned from the "Boss" lineage of practice. 

This may go on to explain why he's at BB's grave at the beginning of the game.  That Snake is now aware of the heroic deeds that Pops did back in the day, I suppose some show of respect is in order.

Amazingu Jul 17, 2008

McCall wrote:
SonicPanda wrote:

La-Li-Lu-Le-Lo

I thought that La-Li-Lu-Le-Lo was supposed to be missing Japanese sounds/letters removed by the Patriots, not Chinese (though I am sure you are correct in your statement too.)

Actually, I think La-Li-Lu-Le-Lo is perfectly pronouncable for Chinese. It's actually Ra-Ri-Ru-Re-Ro in the original Japanese version, but then the Japanese don't have an 'L', even though Ra-Ri-Ru-Re-Ro is often pronounced as La-Li-Lu-Le-Lo. It's kind of random.
Plus, it is my understanding that these sounds occur whenever someone tries to utter the phrase "The Patriots"

Amazingu Aug 1, 2008

McCall wrote:

You're correct, that's the whole point - The Patriots removed the letter "L" from the Japanese alphabet

I'm sorry, but that doesn't make any sense whatsoever.
First of all, I'm sure the Japanese version of the game never mentions any such thing, and I've played ALL MGS games in Japanese, and second Why the Hell would anyone want to steal a letter from the Japanese alphabet!?

It's Ra-Ri-Ru-Re-Ro in Japanese and La-Li-Lu-Le-Lo in English, which is simply because the Japanese don't have an 'L' and in English it's easier to pronounce with an 'L' instead of an 'R'.

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