Soundtrack Central The best classic game music and more

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Stephen Jan 22, 2007

the_miker wrote:
Zane wrote:

I had a dream last night that Carl was at my local karaoke bar with me, Miker, and some of my friends, and he was singing some song about Lord of the Rings and credit card debt. I am not even joking.

...

*backs away slowly*

-Mike

"Carl of the ten fingers and the credit card of doom..."

longhairmike Jan 23, 2007

Beginning next month im taking on the mortgage monster...

Carl Jan 23, 2007

Did you opt for the 15 year battle or the 30 year battle?
...It's a looong boss fight...

longhairmike Jan 23, 2007

30 with penalty-free pre-payment option,, its new construction so im not worried about crap falling apart for a while...

XLord007 Jan 23, 2007

Carl wrote:

Ironically, the card issuers are TOTALLY dependant on the notion that the borrowers will uphold their end of the deal and keep attempting to slowly repay the loan.

No, not totally dependent.  Don't forget that credit card compaines charge merchants a transaction fee on every transaction involving their cards.  This incremental revenue is tremendous when you consider how many transactions occur on a given day.  When gas prices went up, it wasn't just Big Oil that benefitted.  Because gasoline was more expensive, more people charged and ding ding ding, the credit card companies raked it in on transaction fees.

Carl wrote:

If everyone were to just default on their loans en-mass, the devastating loss of all that income would criple the lenders completely, and they wouldn't want to offer credit to anyone, since nobody would even intend on repaying them anymore.

I think our resident economist, Crash, would be best left to explain why this would be a bad idea for our macroeconomic environment.

Crash Jan 24, 2007

I wouldn't consider myself the resident economist; Brandon has a better grasp for economics than I do.  But, off the top of my head, here's what would probably happen if everyone decided to not pay their credit cards:

1. The credit card companies would not get their rightful income.  Yes, credit card companies do collect a fee from the merchant for giving them the money right away, but that's only about 2-3% of the purchase price.  Let's say you had a meal in a nice restaurant, and the total came to $100, which you charged.  The credit card company would pay the restaurant $97, and then expect you to pay them $100 when your statement becomes due.  If you did not pay them that $100, and had no plans to pay them that money, the card issuer is out the $97 they advanced to the merchant.  That's not that big a deal if only a few people default, but if everyone defaults, that's a crisis.

2. The credit card companies don't hold all their assets themselves.  They repackage credit card receivables into asset-backed securities.  Essentially, they bundle together the credit card debt of thousands of people, then issue certificates on this debt to other investors.  If the credit card company expects to get an average return of 7% on this debt, they might package it together and pay a 6.5% coupon.  This gives the company a lower return, but also insulates it from the default risk by passing it on to other investors.  If no one paid their credit cards, these investors are the ones who would get screwed.  Given that credit card interest rates are significantly higher than Treasury rates, these bonds were likely sold at a premium, and when there is mass default, their prices will drop like a rock.

3. A mass default in the credit card sector will lead to a flight to quality.  Basically, if everyone is defaulting on their credit cards, investors will see the environment as being much riskier than before, and will pull their money out of risky investments and into investments with less risk (generally AAA corporate bonds or Treasuries).  This will cause spreads to widen on bonds with lower credit quality, and companies with riskier assets will try to unload them on the marketplace.  Since everyone's trying to unload them at the same time, though, the market gets flooded, so the prices on these assets will drop.  This would have a devastating effect on the financial health of companies that were holding riskier asset classes with low liquidity (like high-yield bonds or mortgage-backed securities), because they have to mark their assets to market, even if they are still holding these assets.  If a company has $100 million in assets and $98 million in liabilities, it has $2 million in surplus, and is doing OK.  If the value of its assets drops by 10%, now it has a surplus deficit of $8 million, and is in serious trouble. 

4. Defaults on credit cards will cause investors to reconsider whether they had underpriced the risks of default for all products.  There would be a mass pull-back of offering home loans.  After all, if consumers are willing to default on their credit cards, why wouldn't they default on their mortgages?  The screening and underwriting process for mortgage loans would tighten considerably, and there would be many fewer people who would qualify for home loans under the new guidelines.  Chances are that you would need to put more than a 20% down payment on a house to get a loan (it would be more like 50%).  Those who would qualify would see substantially higher mortgage rates due to the perceived increase in riskiness of the loans.  Refinancing wouldn't be nearly as easy, and it's likely that people with high mortgage rates or ARMs would be stuck with them.

5. Given the potential for the deterioration of the massive financial services industry, there would probably be a congressionally-authorized bailout (think about the savings and loan industry fiasco, times a million).  So, instead of the credit card consumers paying the credit card companies, the taxpayers would end up paying the credit card companies.  Those who lived without credit cards get screwed because they have to pay for the irresponsible actions of others.  Those who had small balances on credit cards get screwed as well, because the payment they will have to make to the government will exceed the outstanding balance they had on their cards.  Those few who had giant balances will still have to pay something, but not nearly as much as they would have if this situation hadn't happened, so they're happy (provided that their neighbors don't beat them into a bloody pulp).  You may have gotten away with not paying the credit card company, but you're not going to stiff Uncle Sam.

Stephen Jan 24, 2007 (edited Jan 24, 2007)

In addition to packaging debt into asset-backed securities, the credit card company can simply sell the debt's obligations directly to collection agencies for pennies on the dollar.  The credit card company can write off the lost revenue.

The bulk of revenue for credit card companies is definitely finance charges and interest payments. So Carl is right: credit card companies want you to make the minimum monthly payment as this maximizes their interest payments and finance charges.

longhairmike wrote:

30 with penalty-free pre-payment option,, its new construction so im not worried about crap falling apart for a while...

I hope the construction actually finishes.  The housing market is so slow or bad in some areas that developers have had to abort constructions, especially condos.

longhairmike Jan 25, 2007

im just waiting for the kitchen cabinets to come in next week...  there are already a few people living in the other units in the building. we've got a top floor unit
www.parkplaceelkgrove.com

Carl Jan 25, 2007

Nicely stated, Crash.

Crash wrote:

You may have gotten away with not paying the credit card company, but you're not going to stiff Uncle Sam.

Although, Uncle Sam is in even worse condition than the consumers! 
The government is drowning in unfathomable oceans of debt, and isn't even trying to pay off trade deficits to other countries.  Once the gov defaults and nobody backs the dollar, it'll be an ugly mess for the whole planet.

Zane Jan 25, 2007

Hey Mike, which model condo are you and the girl moving into?

Stephen Jan 25, 2007 (edited Jan 25, 2007)

longhairmike wrote:

im just waiting for the kitchen cabinets to come in next week...  there are already a few people living in the other units in the building. we've got a top floor unit
www.parkplaceelkgrove.com

Great! So there is little chance of failure then on this development. Congrats!

Carl wrote:

The government is drowning in unfathomable oceans of debt, and isn't even trying to pay off trade deficits to other countries.  Once the gov defaults and nobody backs the dollar, it'll be an ugly mess for the whole planet.

Unlike individuals, the government can theoretically perpetuate the debt indefinitely by issuing new debt instruments to pay off previous debt obligations.  The government will be in trouble if nobody is buying new debt from the government or the owners of debt start cashing out en masse.

There is a delicate interdependency between nations.  The U.S. is a leading nation in consumption for imports, so if the U.S. defaults, it hurts the other nations who have built their economy from exporting to the U.S.  Thus, there is an incentive to avoid total economic meltdown.

longhairmike Jan 25, 2007

Zane wrote:

Hey Mike, which model condo are you and the girl moving into?

the illinois one.. 1200 feet is plenty for 2 people and some bunnies...
bedroom 2 is going to be a complete business writeoff for the dollstore.

Zane Jan 25, 2007

Awesome! And the balcony has to be sweet.

Datschge Jan 25, 2007

Stephen wrote:

Unlike individuals, the government can theoretically perpetuate the debt indefinitely by issuing new debt instruments to pay off previous debt obligations.  The government will be in trouble if nobody is buying new debt from the government or the owners of debt start cashing out en masse.

There is a delicate interdependency between nations.  The U.S. is a leading nation in consumption for imports, so if the U.S. defaults, it hurts the other nations who have built their economy from exporting to the U.S.  Thus, there is an incentive to avoid total economic meltdown.

At the rate the current US government is multiplying the US' debt a move away from the US Dollar as the international main trading and monetary reserve currency is already sufficient to make the US suddenly bankrupt. You correctly showed that the interdependency between countries won't make that happen quickly, but the move away from the US Dollar as the sole dominant international currency is already happening for over a decade. Btw. when one looks at the US' current ridiculous public spending it's quite hard to believe that one has to go back only to 2000 and little further to see how reducing debt is possible (only to be replaced for showcase how to burn public money in record amounts).

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