http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/02/19/homele … index.html

I just read about this, and am utterly shocked by it.

I realise that the whole "video games cause violence" horse was beaten dead long ago, but I find it more shocking that a human being would do this to a homeless man. I can't even think straight right now, let alone write a proper post about it.

Just thought I'd share it with everyone, maybe hear their thoughts . . .

Yeah I saw that two days ago and I had the same reaction about the event (I'm not even going to go into the video games comment). The last time I felt such a reaction was when that guy volunteered to be eaten by the German cannibal. I couldn't stop thinking about that (and the implications for humanity) for weeks. Weird how, with all of the hideous things that go on in the world, some things can hit much harder.

With this one it's the killing for 'sport' aspect that horrifies me. The fact that it wasn't an isolated one-off freak and attacks on homeless are so frequent really freaked the shit out of me too. Is that what we are? People who would kill if bored?

What's scary is that my first reaction was 'these people should be strung up'. My first reaction was to think that I have the right to decide who lives and who dies. To continue the idea that life is worthless. I hope thinking it and acting on it are two different things.

I hope that, as a species, some day we'll be better than this.

<Alex> I was cured, alright...

I honestly believe that some people are evil. Of course you could argue that evil is in the eye of the beholder, but I don't know how else to describe people who beat up on homeless for no reason other than "sport"! I think such excuses as: peer preasure, video games, internet, TV, etc. are nothing more than excuses that these murderers hope will alleviate some of their punishment. Most of us had our "rebellious" teenage years where we argued with our parents, had lots of peer pressure, stayed up all night with friends, played violent video games (I think many of us still do), watched violent movies/TV, etc... but millions of kids go through that and still never think about hurting anyone!

Obviously no one knows all the facts, but it seems to me that these murderers do it "for the thrill". This isn't anything new. In fact, murder for "pleasure" or "sport" or whatever you call it has been around for who knows how long! The most famous case I can think of is Leopold and Loeb -see:

http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/project … trial.html

Despite these juvenile murderers (by the way, I think that they should be tried as adults), I think that most kids here in the US are good, even if they do watch too much TV and play too many video games.

cheers,

-avatar!

I agree with pretty much everything you're saying, Avatar, but I'm curious about one bit from a US law perspective - why have different rules for minors at all if you can try them as adults, even if they're not? I would have thought, if sentencing on minors was too leniant, then the solution would be to revise that system rather than label some minors as adults. Or have a 'teen' system. I don't know the ins and outs of how it works for minors in the US.

I have no doubt that people from 15-17 (as these kids are) are fully aware of what they are doing, know right from wrong and, as such, should be held accountable. Pocketing some chewing gum in a shop is one thing. Beating a homeless man to death is entirely different.

The laws are supposed to help protect minors especially when they can "easily" be brainwashed and forced or compelled to do things they "normally" would not do. In some instances this is completely valid. In other instances (such as teens beating up homeless) the minors committed the crime on their own, and therefore they should be tried as adults.

cheers,

-avatar!

edit: Of course I'm not an expert on law, so I'm giving you my perspective on it.

I don't know if any of you already saw this, but the guys at Penny Arcade got an E-mail from the kid's mother:

http://www.penny-arcade.com/2007/02/21#1172088960

This pretty much proves that, yes, some people just ARE evil.

Wow.

That's completely not what I expected to read.

It churned my stomach a bit... reminded me that yes, there are people in the world who are missing part of their brain that allows them to reason.

I wonder how the kid's likin' jail...

Hopefully that letter gets some media exposure.  It needs to.

....I hate humanity.

-Joshua

The problem is that those kids went to prison. Now, other teenagers are aware they will merely go to prison. If there were some real punishment, such as being thrown into a crocodile pit, then those types of crimes would happen less often. But we choose to be soft on people, so we're to blame for the crimes. We have the power to punish, but refuse to execute it.

I think prison is something that deters most teenagers. I also think that part of the problem is that these teens who commit such senseless crimes believe they can get away with it! The fact that they are going to prison is good. 15 years is not such a short time. In places like Iran, if you break the law, such as if a woman shows her wrists, she can be beaten. Or, if you do something horrible, such as have sex, you can be stoned to death.  See:

http://www.womensenews.org/article.cfm?aid=2834

I'm not sure draconian punishments are necessarily good for people.

cheers,

-avatar!

I see nothing wrong with your first reaction. I have no qualms concerning the prospect of deciding who lives and who dies. The reason for that is I care about the human race. I believe that people should be allowed to roam this planet without worrying about being killed, raped, mugged, etc. You have to remember I don't think very realistically. I'm more concerned with possibilities than reality. I'm also not religious and I could care less about this notion of "acting like God", since that old chap has no supporting evidence. I could be God. Old man Jones down the street could be God. Or no one could be God. We have no way of knowing.

  I know that most people think realistically and believe in God, so they wouldn't dare consider the prospect of deciding who lives and who dies. But I don't view it as pleasure; it's purely efficiency. People often mistake me for rude; those that know me understand I'm efficient. By quickly discarding those humans that have demonstrated they are not safe to have around, no one will have to worry anymore if little Joey is coming home for dinner, or if Susan will be raped while walking around in her own house.

  I can understand why Joshua (above) stated he hates humanity. Hatred is, of course, irrational. You shouldn't hate the bad guys; just stomp them, like a goomba!

The problem with the Iranian laws is they are punishing people that have done nothing wrong. It is not wrong to show your wrists. It is not wrong to have sex. Violating the law and doing something wrong are very different things.

   With respect to those Iranian laws, I completely agree with you that draconian punishments are not good.

According to Muslim law, these women *have* done something wrong. Therefore, they are punished according to Iranian law. Of course, I personally believe that these laws are nonesense, but the point is that once you start making blanket laws such as "all murderers should be fed to the Sharkticons" you naturally produce other blanket laws until you no longer have a free society. I do however agree with you that all too often criminals get off too easy. Nevertheless, I disagree with your notion of "kill all the bad guys and life will be great" -life is not black and white, and it's not always easy to say who is the bad guy and who is the good guy.

cheers,

-avatar!

And neither did these kids it seems. Create a society where it is okay for one man to kill another and, well, one man killing another is exactly what you'll get.

Thanks for the info, and I hope that letter can continue to get attention.

Thanks for posting that. I had to stop reading about halfway through, though. I got her point loud and clear.

So you better straighten up!

The kid, and the letter from the step-mom, reminds me of a boy I used to "counsel" in a group home for abused kids. Most of them had legitimately been abused, but I swear on my own grave that this kid lied about EVERYTHING. Eventually he started sneaking out of classrooms and calling social services saying that WE (even me, lovable ol' Ramza) abused him.

Believe me, I WANTED to hurt this kid after working with him for six months, but I NEVER did.

Fortunately, in our case, social services knew that the kid was full of shit. He's 13, and if he doesn't get sent to boot camp soon, I wouldn't be surprised if he did something along the lines of...oh I don't know...murdering a homeless person. I wouldn't put it past him for a second.

As for the topic at hand...yeah, that kid definitely used videogames to make the media spin work in his favor.

My understanding of religion and afterlife (should you choose to believe in one) requires that the only reason such a thing as "hell" could ever exist is for the unrepentant guilty -- the ones who truly enjoy wrong over right and refuse any other way. The Catholic church teaches of a go-between, "purgatory," for people who have screwed up but decide to turn things around after death. You go through some hardships, you change, and you go to heaven. But, presumably, some of them would be like "f*ck off," not just to their parents, but to the ultimate authority conceivable. And *they* are the lucky few that get to rot (or be annihilated) in hell.

I used to be a very sentimental sort of universalist, but it is stories like these (and that kid I worked with) that allow me to confirm a theological necessity for the concept of "hell."

Ramza

It's not OK for one man to kill another. There's nothing OK about killing those that have killed. It's a matter of prevention. I've seen people executed. Do you think I enjoy watching those videos? I've been misunderstood. The killing is not ok, it's purely preventive. But in the future....well, you see, now we would do this killing because it's easy. It's easier than rehabilitating them. Sometimes they don't respond to rehabilitation. Rehabilitation may not even be possible in the future, with fancy neurosurgery. Well, I imagine it could, but it might be easier to give them another home. The human brain is really complicated.

  Many years from now, we won't need to kill them. It's very expensive to contain human beings and keep them alive (prison). I'd rather not kill them, so I've realized a future society could send them somewhere. Give them their own planet. Say, use an e-m converter and turn their bodies into pure energy. Their personality and memories could be stored in a computer, while their bodies would serve as fuel for the spaceship. Upon arriving at the homeworld, the e-m converter would reproduce their bodies with the mass of the ship, making it impossible for them to escape.

I should've been more careful about what I typed. Killing those that kill will only prevent those people from killing again. It will do nothing about the first instance, since a first instance is required in order to be identified as a killer. I should've typed that it could make things a little bit better.

  I did get a chuckle about the Sharkticons. Guilty....or Innocent? hehe

I'm not quite sure how I could possibly misunderstand you. I think your words are quite clear.

Though there is one thing now I'm not quite clear on - why would these kids deserve punishment in your eyes? The man was homeless. Had no prospects. Didn't contribute. A drain on society. Didn't they do society a favour?

Actually, there is excess food in our society. We could feed millions everyday and there would be no financial loss. But why do the kids deserve punishment? Well, what if that homeless man were your father? Or your son? What if some alien race decided we were mere vagabonds, and wiped us out on that assumption? Just like the hypothetical aliens, the kids were just having a good time. How would you like to die at the expense of someone (or thing's) "good time"?

  I can argue the other point as well. The impact of his death is negligible. So let the kids live. They're going to die eventually. Just send them to a walled in society where they will learn how to properly hurt people. Never mind if they learn from their mistakes. We really don't know what the hell to do with them, but we can't kill them, either. Let's just spend a lot of the taxpayers' money, keep them away from society for a while, and hope they behave themselves.

  I decided to add an edit:

  I have very little empathy, however, one can train oneself to improve that deficiency. Lack of empathy is why someone would kill a homeless person and why the kids deserve punishment. Empathy is the ability to experience the mind of another human, which is impossible, but can be approximated. Some people, especially many women, have uncontestable empathic abilities (not to be confused with telepathic). Empathy should also not be confused with sympathy. Many serial killers, reportedly, lack empathy. So, could a drug add more empathy to a human brain? Is that the solution? Hmm...we could tear down the prisons, cancel the interstellar flights, and pocket a lot of money. Maybe. The development and distribution of such a drug would be costly, assuming such a drug could be produced (and work).

Wow.

Is that "wow" as in

"wow, what a clever and rational insight"
"wow, what a cold and apathetic person"
or, "wow, what an idiot"?

I'll tell you which one I'M thinking, if you tell me yours

It probably wasn't any of those. It was probably some sort of sarcasm, since I stated the obvious. After reading it myself, I noticed there was no new information; everyone should already know that. Often, what's obvious to others is unknown to me. Take this empathy and sympathy thing, for example. I've always thought they were the same thing. It turns out that empathy is different from sympathy; I discovered that a few months ago. What's really interesting about empathy is that I discovered it on my own more than a year ago, but I didn't have a name for it; I merely recognized that such a phenomena could exist. Telepathy, however, would be true empathy. Empathy is merely an approximation of telepathy. Nothing leaves the skull other than heat, so telepathy would require technological augmentation.

Now your misinterpretation of my (albeit short) comment leaves me thinking one of two options is what's going on here -

a) You are totally oblivious. In general.

b) You know full well what my intention was because you anticipated my response and, indeed, were seeking that response. You simply choose to put on this "I'm wacky, me" persona and acknowledging the real intent of my post wouldn't fit with that. Sort of like the way you used to post those one line "I'm so crazy" threads to garner attention.

But, for Amazingu, it was "wow" as in, "wow, that's some scary ass shit right there." Of course, I suspect that was entirely the reaction Jodo was hoping for so kudos to Jodo on that for a job well done.

So I guess number 3 came closest then

And yes, Mr. Kast does very much seem to enjoy his being a social misfit.

Social misfit. I have to give you credit. It's better than being an asocial misfit. Of course, you could never call me asocial, because I wouldn't be here.

     I do remember something you once wrote about me. You had stated that I might be here playing some kind of game.
In some sense that's true. It's important to understand the rules. The more we play, the better we understand them. I'm heavily disadvantaged, since I lack empathy and have a good grasp of abstract concepts - neither of which help at dealing with humans. Believe me, I'm just as confused as you are.

Gun to my head...

I wrote that?
Damn, my memory sucks.
Still, I guess I might have.

I'm not particularly confused about anything though.
That is, not until you said that I am.

Perhaps I should call you Mr. Kast, since your image looks more like Kast than Fett. Anyway, my mind is a steel trap, which is not my opinion, but of those from my Calculus III course. That was 8 years ago, and I now know that steel is rather cavernous, so to have a mind guarded by steel is little different than a layer of cotton. So yes, you did write that but I don't remember the date or what it was in reference to. Well, you are confused about your own memory, so I'm right on both counts but can't really prove anything. Which leaves us nowhere.

Actually, it is neither Kast nor Fett, it is Vile/Vava from the Megaman X series, but I acknowledge the startling similarities, and daresay they are not coincidental. Incidentally, I was never aware of a character named Jodo Kast (other than the one we all know and love over here), since I am not too familiar with the Star Wars Universe, until I actually bothered to look it up just now.

Another of life's great mysteries solved.

I used to have a great memory too, until I actually started getting a life and there were too many things too remember. (adversely, it might also have started declining when I finally succumbed to the temptations of alcohol )
That said, it is still considerably better than most of my friends's memories, which is kinda sad I guess.
I think the main issue here is that I actually have better and more useful things to do than remembering what I or anyone else said on some Internet forum somewhere. Now, if I had said something similar to your face, I'm sure I would have remembered. You might overestimate the extent to which I take my own posts seriously.

This has been probably the strangest thread I've ever read through. Well, it started off quite serious and fairly straightforward, but now we (well some of us anyway) are comparing cotton to steel and noting it's the same substance... well, in that case, I'd be very interested in hearing if it truly is the same thing after wearing some steel underwear for a day, or perhaps cleaning your computer screen with a nice steel washcloth...

Now, I'm not trying to be antognistic, but for someone who claims to be very analytic, well perhaps you should reanalyze certain things you've said
Please don't take it the wrong way, I am quite amused!

cheers,

-avatar!

"Though this be madness, yet there is method in 't??"

Hey, that's pretty interesting. Having not played much beyond the 8 bit MM games, I never would've caught that. Probably 5 or 6 years ago, I explained here why I chose Jodo Kast. You see, I acknowledge that I'm not the best. Jodo Kast is merely a second rate bounty hunter and wears armor that looks similar to Fett's, except it has some yellow coloration. My prey back then was game music cd's, since I had just a few. It seemed appropriate to use the name of a bounty hunter. But by no means could I be Boba Fett. It would be just wrong.

I don't make an effort to remember what people say about me. Sometimes, some of you star in my dreams. As far as my brain is concerned, you digital people are no different than the physical people. You state that you have better things to do than remember what you type on forums. Actually, that's not the case. It's not because you're doing better things; it's just because you forgot. You can still do better things and not forget trivial things. If the quality of "having a life" means loss of memory, then does "not having a life" mean stronger memory? So, is it better to have a life? I'll leave this one alone for now, but you've given me something interesting to think about.