Observe:

  http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/03/16/ … index.html

  This General Pace and Senator Brownback need an education. If homosexual acts are immoral, then I suppose that heterosexual acts are moral, but that can be easily discredited. A form of heterosexual sex that is immoral is rape.
Based on the reasoning of those men, I would suppose that the act of being blind is immoral, using a wheelchair is immoral, and listening to video game music is immoral.

I'm so amused by those idiots that I'm thinking of a way to integrate them into a short story.

This reminds me of when "Sir" Elton John came out and claimed "religion turns people into gay bashers/closed-minded biggots" - or something to that extent. I can't rememeber the exact words he used but I found it to be in *extremely* bad taste. I mean to you REALLY want to alienate every religious minded person based on the hostile view(s) and actions the relative few hold towards homosexuality in this day and age? Dumb move.

This is somewhat simular, but I don't feel the decision or the debate of homosexuallity being moral or immortal should be hands of people in the goverment looking to get into the while house with their own policial agendas. It simply shouldn't. Simple as that.

And yet accurate. There are very few religions that, when you get down to it, welcome homosexuals with open arms. Some important religious tomes (like our old friend, the Bible) advocate rather harsh punishments for homosexuals.

LOL quite the expert are you?

1) The Bible never advocates any sort of punishment for homosexuality. The only law forbidding homosexual sex is in Leviticus, and while it is listed alongside a string of other "do not put your penis in ____" laws (bestiality and incest are also forbidden here), there are no corresponding punishments listed alongside it. Indeed, breaking these laws, according to many theologians, would hold the same reprimanding as any form of ceremonial uncleanliness, including the awful "wearing of clothing made from two different sources" (such as wool + cotton, or in our time, 50% polyester!).

The only other passages that mention homosexuality in the Bible are found in the New Testament. In Romans (1:25~28), Paul claims that God lets people give in to their own depravity, such as choosing homosexual lifestyles. Similar things are written by Paul in 1 Corinthians chapter 6. So, no punishment is described or advocated.

2) Within every major religion today, there are debates between more liberal and more conservative parties as to whether or not homosexuality can/should be allowed within the religion. As Americans, we hear the debate most prominently in Christian circles (and should you care to get into the debate...like Ashley said, there is actually only a small--but vocal--group of people who are actively anti-homosexual within Christianity). But you know, the debate goes on in Islam, Hinduism, and Buddhism as well. So, "when you get down to it," I'm not sure you can say that religions aren't welcoming homosexuals with open arms.

3) Sir Elton John's quote was accurate? "Religion turns people into gay bashers and/or closed-minded biggots" -- do you honestly think RELIGION is the cause for that? What a f*cking scapegoat. It's human nature to be afraid of whatever is different from us, or the status quo. Religion may *sometimes* be the structure/institution used by those in power (and even the masses) to continue to discriminate, but that does not make religion in and of itself the culprit.

Grow up. You phail.

Ramza

The bible advocates harsh punishments for practically everything that's even marginally enjoyable, anyways.  It'd be rude to leave homosexuality off the list.

Here is the arcticle on Elton John:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15675821/

OMG, I'm so going to hell for laughing at that.

http://www.soulforce.org/article/homose … alter-wink

And various translations of 20:13 can be found here:  http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_bibh3.htm

At least you'll have something amusing to remember while you bide your time there.

Let me start by quoting this. "Grow up" followed by "You phail". Just let that sink in - "Grow up", "You phail". With a "ph". A "ph".

That's quality right there. Pure solid gold.

I'm not sure. Seems you're not quite well up on your Leviticus. Does that make me the expert? (Oh, I guess I should put a "LOL" here but, hey, I'm the one who needs to "grow up"). You see, to me, "If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads" seems like advocating what I would consider to be a harsh punishment.

That's just how it seems to me. Put to death, harsh punishment. Maybe I'm too liberal. Maybe being put to death is a walk in the park. Maybe I'm misinterpreting the big homosexual love-in gay-pride parade come one, come all that is the Bible.

Maybe you know nothing about Israelite culture and the nature of the book of Leviticus.

1) Whether or not those calls to "put to death" were actively enforced at the time is "up in the air" according to historians. I'm sure the verse was used for justification to kill them, but not always.

2) Like I said, those same punishments applied to a number of laws that were in accordance with "ceremonial uncleanliness" -- that is, doing stuff that makes you unholy in the sight of God, particularly within the Israelite encampment (or, after the nomadic times, in Jerusalem itself). My apologies for not moving on to Lev. 20; you're right, I did miss that one, I apologize. BUt I can pull up similar calls to kill for plenty of things that we do not penalize on any legal level anymore (such as adultery, or even having sex with your wife while she's having her period).

I too am not an expert on Levitical law and the OT, but it's fair to say that because you can dig up this or that verse on an issue doesn't mean thats the final say on it...particularly in our culture where the verses are much up in debate. (ALSO -- the Levitical laws are essentially done away with in Christianity and Judaism, except for very VERY small, fringe movements).

One of my favorite undergrad professors always brought up that in the Bible there are 3 verses (4 if you include the extension in Levit. to chap. 20) on Homosexuality, but there are 10,000+ on Poverty and how we should handle it.

Looks like, in the mainstream press and the world of Jerry Falwell etc., Christianity has its priorities confused.

But within the grassroots movements, the places where a homosexual who wishes to freely practice religion (such as Christianity), they can and will easily find the church that welcomes them with open arms. As we speak, I think it's safe to say that this movement is growing (though of course, there is always a conservative backlash).

My main point here is that demonizing religion and using it as an argument as to why society has so many problems is, frankly, bullsh*t.

Ramza

PS / Edit: -- Lev. 20 is a classic on who gets put to death for what. I hadn't read the list in years, because 1) it's depressing and 2) it's irrelevant.

"Anyone who curses his father or mother shall be put to death; since he has cursed his father or mother, he has forfeited his life.

That's verse 9. So, comparing the religious text to today's lifestyle, I think it's safe to say that, for the same reason a person who curses his mom and dad isn't put to death (or shunned from the military), the same may well be said for homosexuals.

(this is, for those who care to know, an "accomodationist" look at Scripture and Religion. I can put up with the people on the "Religion" camp that think we can't accomodate, just barely...but I get sick of people outside of the Religious circles who claim that "normal" society and religion MUST be at odds, particularly because we are some out-of-date backwater hicks).

I thought you'd like that. It was to soften the meaning of the failure. PH fail, to me, means "you fail haha but only in a small and capricious way."

If you'd like to return it with a "Grow up" and end the sentence there, without any ph-failing, I'll gladly take it. We all continue to grow up. I just think that, for you, part of growing up will be to see that such anti-religious sentiments are going to get society nowhere: the sort of standstill that leads to internal struggle.

Ramza

Okay, I laughed too.  This line is amazing!

Thanks, you've been a great crowd, I'll be here all week!  But seriously, the bible has a serious stick up its proverbial butt.

Edit:  I just realized I made an unintended pun.  I'M ON FIRE TODAY!!

took me awhile to catch the pun. Proverbial, Proverbs...good one.

It IS in bad taste... but believe me, after you've dealt with the prejudice and the fear for all of your life, it's not hard to feel that way.

Ramza, while your points are all very interesting, they're all really besides the point and more on a historical and theological debate.

I said that few religions welcome homosexuals with open arms. There are harsh punishments advocated. I used the Bible as an example. You were happy enough to throw out your 'lols' and your 'phails' and yet you haven't managed to show otherwise. The words of Leviticus are quite clear. You can argue historical context and interpretations all you like (which by the way, I totally agree with) and yet the words still say the same thing.

If you come at it from a historical perspective, I can see how the context does not apply today. If you come at it from a very vague "well we can interpret it however we like" or "it's just metaphors", well I'd argue you'd be on shaky ground with the Leviticus quote but I'd see where you're coming from.

However, if I was a religious person, that would be saying to me that God didn't really mean what he said or Jesus was wrong to say the Old Testament was true or that God has difficulty making himself clear. And if I could question that much, I can't imagie how I could possibly justify any of it. If there was a God and he really did know everything, I can't imagine communication skills would be a problem. Or that man should have the balls to tell him what he meant to say. But what do I know, eh?

These are very good questions. A quick look at the Bible, in its current form, is all it takes to say "man, God had a hard time making himself and his agenda(s) known."

I'm going to go ahead and agree with you. You're right, you never said anything about historical/theological context; the point is that the words are written there: kill people that have homosexual sex. They were laws for the Israelites, and I can argue that these laws were man-made and not God-made, but it's certainly true that this doesn't sit well with lots of Christians (who believe in the inerrancy of Scripture more than they believe in Jesus' own words).

So yeah, I'll stop here. You were right. My bad. The Bible example was valid.

That said, I'm a Christian and in no way a homo-hater. I'd like to think that religion itself made me into that kind of person (loving etc), but a lot of it comes from having a decent education too.

Ramza

Well that's probably the ultimate in best-case scenario then. Education coupled with positive elements of spirituality  could do a lot of people on all sides (myself included) a lot of good. In my very humble opinion, of course. I have difficulty with the spiritual bit myself but I'm still looking, hoping that something will reveal itself to me at some point. I actually think music will eventually point me in the right direction. I'm going way OT now...