Is it legal to download soundtracks from say (http://downloads.khinsider.com/) if you own the original game? I would like some definite legal advice.

I can't offer definite legal advice, but I'd say "no" is a pretty safe bet. It's in the same vein as why owning a movie doesn't entitle you to downloading its soundtrack.

I don't believe buying a game grants you the legal right to possess the music in a another format or on a different type of media. If so, this would allow anyone who has any particular album on a record, cassette, etc the right to upgrade the music they purchase without re-paying for it... and what kind of a world would it be where we don't have to re-pay for things we already own when a format change comes along? That's a world I'm sure record companies wouldn't want to live in but everyone else would.

Anyway, in all seriousness, I myself really don't have a big problem with people DLing music AS LONG as they use it to decide if they want to purchase the real thing (like a test drive). I don't know about anyone else but I can't judge if I want an album based on 30 sec clips of each song, I need to see if the entire thing is worth the money I'm gonna spend on it. I won't buy a CD with one or two good songs on it. Video games have the edge here because you can hear the score on the game itself, thus giving you another outlet to hear it from.

But don't take this as a license saying it's ok to do it either. If you DL stuff you accept the risk it might come back and bite you in the ass. Still, I think people who purchase what they like have a little more of a right to do this than someone's who's entire collection of music is downloaded and burned from the internet and wouldn't buy a real CD unless they had a gun to their head. *Exploring music* and being *cheap* are two different things... don't be the latter and support the bands and composers you like.

You are allowed to make a backup of the material you own, but you probably won't be able to defend yourself in court in this situation unless you can find some way to prove you had ownership of the soundtracks in question before downloading them.

You're certainly welcome to make your own recording, and I would expect that this could be extended to downloading other "amateur" recordings. But if there's an actual officially released soundtrack, and that's what you want a copy of, that's a separate product with different copyrights involved and you would absolutely be in violation of copyright law to download a VGM CD that you do not own, even if you do own the corresponding game.

That said, who gives a shit? You're going to download it if you want to anyway.

I'll say gamerips are fair game as long as you're not a fink on eBay making profit off of them (like so many are but not being persecuted). If this happens to be illegal because of any copyright infringement, I'd say to them a company that will not provide a soundtrack available for purchase has poor defense. But this is impossible to enforce, so who cares? Recording television shows isn't illegal; selling is so recording game music for your enjoyment shouldn't be illegal by any means. There could be an argument there; if a company one day plans to release a soundtrack, their efforts could be damaged but I don't think that's a huge issue. Sharing it on a P2P opens another door, a mass sharing ordeal invites all kinds of unsavory law breakery.

When it comes to downloading officially released soundtracks, owning the game does not justify you stealing the soundtrack if it happens to be available online. If it was in fact published, distributed and sold in a store, you are stealing and there's no two ways about it. Stealing from the record label means by doing so, also the game company and composer(s) involved. Now maybe someone bought that soundtrack and already gave the companies and composers their royalties, still doesn't justify piracy. Does the record company cheat its artists? Do they charge too much? Those are all rationalizations I suppose...

Let's also use the "borrowing from a friend" argument; that's not illegal, but copying or bootlegging theirs is illegal even if you don't plan on selling or distributing. But who cares, that's not enforced and would be near impossible to anyway (video games are the same deal). Allowing it to be downloaded by hundreds upon thousands is certainly a threat and that one should be obvious because it will certainly do damage to the companies and their efforts to produce soundtracks in the future.

I don't care to reflect upon myself and what I do in anyway. If you can live with knowing these things, that's a different story.

This reminds me of the Mega CD, PC-Engine CD days when Sega promoted the fact the game discs could be listened to in a CD player and NEC warned against it because many PCE CD games got OST releases.  Anyways, downloading pretty much anything that isn't officially sanctioned by a publisher is illegal.

Thank you very much for all your replies,very insightful.

What about companies like technosoft that only produced very small amounts of CD soundtracks, and very limited soundtracks like SOR. Assuming you own the original games.

OK, also then, if you own the Original soundtrack offical CD are you allowed to put it on your Ipod?

BTW

what price should I be able to by R-type delta or r type final offical soundtrack
£10 each?

Legality has nothing to do with supply or availablity.

-Joshua

I am not a lawyer!

Copyright allows the publisher to dictate how it wants its copyrighted material to be distributed for a fixed number of years.  This includes the publisher deciding NOT to publish the material at all (yes, it seems dumb, but the publisher can choose to do this).  Therefore, if you download music without paying for it or download music that isn't available (like the Technosoft albums), you are technically violating copyright, even if you have no intention of selling the music or giving it to someone else.  If the publisher found out and takes you to court, you would probably have difficulty defending your case.

If you own the original soundtrack, it is currently accepted by most countries that adhere to international copyright that making a copy for your iPod is OK ("fair use").  You are not allowed to give or sell copies of the music to anybody else.  The music is for your own personal enjoyment.

R-Type Delta and R-Type final soundtracks are out of print.  They originally sold for about $25 USD or £12 before shipping costs.  You can try searching for these albums at www.cdjapan.co.jp, otaku.com, vgmworld.com, and play-asia.com, all of which sell official Japanese game soundtracks.  Otherwise, you may have to search ebay, but you may have to pay more.  There are also middleman services, where people bid on your behalf on Yahoo Auctions Japan, but you have to pay the winning bid + middleman fee + shipping costs, which can make it expensive if you're only buying 1 album.

Thank you stephen

So in conclusion, if I own the game then I do not own the soundtracks in the game, even if I can extract them with software ( PSmplay04_0725 for example)

Am I correct?

Yes.  Technically, you would have to get the official soundtrack if there is one available.  If there is not a soundtrack available, you are out of luck (from a legal viewpoint).  You can extract the music from the game and hope the publisher doesn't find out and take you to court.  The chances of that happening are small (the publisher doesn't necessarily want to waste its money and time going after one person for one copy of some music), but it's not zero.  The risk is always there. 

Again, I'm not a lawyer, so what I say is only general information from reading a little on copyrights.  If you have truly deep questions, you should talk to a real lawyer or law professor/teacher about how copyright works in your country.  The U.S. and U.K. (since you mentioned British pounds) have similar copyright laws, but they are not identical.

A bit extreme, no?

I've heard this discussion somewhere before.  Sure, you pay $50 for the game but can't manipulate the data in such a way to make it's contents available outside of the actual game environment?  I wonder what the official legal standpoint on that is.  Example: I have all the FMV scenes from Silent Hill 2 ripped on my computer for easy viewing.  Is that really "illegal" to do?  Even if I don't sell them or distribute them?  Does Konami want me to just see them in game and that's it?

Very interesting topic.  If we have any lawyers out there, let's hear it!

-Mike

I am also not a lawyer, but I'm inclined to disagree. The copyright on the soundtrack lies in the recording itself - if you make your own recordings from DVDs or video games that you own, for your own personal use, that should fall under "fair use". Basically you're suggesting a double standard: that is, it's OK for me to record copies of my own CDs, but not audio from other media I own.

Also, to add a little realism: the majority of VGM soundtracks originate from Japan, and while any other country that has signed the Berne Convention will observe and respect the copyright in question, it's still up to the copyright holder to act on it, which is incredibly unlikely.

Yes, it is extreme, but if I go by the letter of the law, I think there is a violation, technically.  However, there are other factors that muddle the waters.  Enforcement of the law isn't always consistent, and there is also the aspect of a majority of people simply ignoring the law.  People can ignore the law, but that does not hold up in U.S. courts typically.  So, in some sense, this whole issue may break down to how much risk you want to take.

Indeed.

Yeah, I think it is double standard.  However, every time I read a copyright clause when I play a Nintendo game, they text appears to be very restrictive.  The reason I think copying a CD music is more accepted as "fair use" is that it's a common practice that everybody in society knows about.  I haven't heard of widespread use of copying music from a game or DVD only.  I haven't read any stories where somebody was taken to court over that specific situation.

There's a fourth amendent argument here (right to privacy). And it stands because no one cares if you have fake copied material in your home or private quarters. If you're being a moron and selling the bootlegs, well, you deserve the trip to court. But let's glance over at the eBay debacle and their [eBay's] impetence to shut down these sellers. If they can't penalize these people, then I wouldn't worry about a damn thing.

In realistic terms, you are allowed to do whatever you want that doesn't violate certain principles of physics. In other words, if you can't do it, something beyond your control has stopped you. Meaning, you are free to do whatever you want with music, whether you own it or not... Until the law steps in and apprehends you, which is extremely unlikely, but possible. Clearly, the law is little concerned with video game music, since slightlydark is allowed to exist and no one stopped me when I used to sell cdr copies by the hundreds. I wasn't careful about my advertising, either. I wasn't even worried.

This argument keeps getting more interesting. I suppose the next step would be to contact the makers of the music(if they still exist) and ask their opinion (would we get a reply is the question). It would be really neat of someone could source some real legal documents describing VGS.

If you extract content from media you legitemately-own, and only use it for your own personal use, I highly-doubt it can be construed as copyright infringement.

I am [soon to be] a lawyer, and I can provide a definitive answer for you (legal citations begrudgingly available upon request).  However, obligatory disclaimer, none of this should be taken to be legal advice on a specific issue, and in the case of specific action you should consider retaining your own lawyer before acting in reliance on this information.

If you own the original game, you are allowed to transform and take from it under fair use, assuming you don't go against the DMCA, which prevents you from circumventing a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under this title (i.e. decrypting an encrypted file).  That includes making a recording of your own, or even ripping files straight from the disc if they are unencrypted (such as Redbook audio).  Although there is no case law specifically on the topic, downloading a program that rips the files for you (assuming they are originally unencrypted) would still qualify under the fair use doctrine.  If the files ARE encrypted, then not only can you not decrypt the files, but even dissiminating the decryption tools would also be illegal.

It is never permissible under copyright law to download the soundtrack or music tracks from a game you own, regardless of whether or not they were originally encrypted, regardless of whether there is a soundtrack already available, and regardless of whether its for a "test drive."  Purchasing the game gives you ownership of the contents of your specific game disc, not the data itself in the abstract.  You may transform/rip or space-shift/record it if you wish under fair use, but not obtain it somewhere else.  The issue becomes more sinister when there IS a soundtrack available for purchase because a) the content owner is explicitly trying to exercise its copyright ownership over the material you are downloading (this doesn't remove your fair use rights, however), and b) the chances of either intentionally or unintentionally downloading the soundtrack, as opposed to a variant of the original game data (already not OK) increases.  The content owner now has a vested interest in you NOT procuring the soundtrack through illegal means, so the likelihood of it taking steps to go after downloaders also increases.

With regard to the iPod question from Nikos, you are absolutely allowed to put your own rip/recording on, as well as any soundtrack CD you buy.  This falls under the same fair use doctrine that allows you to transform the original game disc data.  It is called "space shifting" and was settled by the Supreme Court decades ago.

If the soundtrack is out of print, your options are limited.  The content owner will continue to hold the copyright until long after you are dead (nearly a century), so legally downloading it is out of the question.  You can ask the content owner for permission (they won't give it), you can get an original game disc and make one yourself, or you can take your chances and commit copyright infringement.  The fact that there is no soundtrack in print or even published, especially with older games, would indicate a decreased likelihood that the content owner will take action against you, but the legal situation remains despite that.

Yes; Thank you for that.

Very Interesting and helpful and impressive. I bet you studied hard for your degree and thanks for the free unofficial legal advice and your time (and thanks to the other contributers to the thread). Are you specializing in any particular area of law Sephiro444?

Extending the argument and offering ideas:

i) In order to operate under fair use one would have to find out what types of files are
encrypted (for example are ps1 audio (.STR file extension) files encrypted)

ii) I don't think sega megadrive or snes cartrige music files are encrypted, does anyone know of a tool that can be used to extract music from these [( hey I'm not kidding  ] or provice a mod for the mega drive console that would auto play the soundtracks.

iii) I won't want to throw out my RF input TV ever because how could I play my legal soundtracks though my mega drive without it

btw does the advice given by Sephiro444 apply to the UK? (I live there)

Well, not there yet, but yes, I'd like to specialize in IP law, so exactly this kind of stuff.

Things get tricky in this kind of situation, since it's not always easy to tell what counts as "encrypted," and the DMCA is intentionally vague on the definition.  To my knowledge, there haven't been any court cases specific deciding what counts as encrypted and what doesn't.  Obviously Redbook audio isn't encrypted, nor would copying a file straight from the disc (e.g. if it included raw jpgs or mp3s).  But beyond that, it's a bit up in the air.  Is just changing the file extension "encrypting" it?  Using a proprietary format for the console, like the Xbox has available for its developers, "encryption" for purposes of the DMCA?  If it's ever held that encryption is just any measure by the content creator to prevent unauthorized access to the material, I think the case could be made.

Nope, the UK doesn't use the same notion of fair use as the US.  This is definitely not something I'm very knowledgable on, but as I understand it, the UK has no legal concept of "fair use," and only very narrow exceptions to copyright infringement for "fair dealing" for non-commercial research or writing a critique.  In fact, technically just copying a CD to your computer/ipod (and I assume recording a game to make your own soundtrack) IS in fact copyright infringement under UK law.  So all that stuff I was saying about your fair use rights... they don't apply there.

On a practical level, people have been recording their vinyl records to audio cassettes for years, iPods are selling just fine in England, and the copyright holders are not making a big stink about it.  I'm just speculating, but I suspect part of the reason for that is that if they were to start pursuing people for converting their CDs to use with their iPod or similar, there would be a huge public outcry and the laws would be changed.

A practical note for the US as well... common sense goes a long way when deciding what to do vis a vis the copyright laws.  If you are recording/ripping/converting/transforming your original game for your own use (even if it's technically "encrypted"), likely no one is going to come after you.  Heck, even if you make a copy for your friend, chances are you'll be fine.  Your likelihood of suffering negative consequences rises when you take things online, posting your recordings or downloading someone else's or the soundtrack to the game you own, but that's due as much to the increased visibility of your activities as much as a more severe infringement.  At least in the US, and I suspect other places as well in terms of when the hammer of justice comes down, you enter a whole different world of infringment when your activities are being done for commercial gain.  When you go there, you're just courting trouble, and the more visible and greater the amount of commercial gain, the faster and more severely the content owners will act (the recent anomalies on ebay notwithstanding).

Man I wish every company would just release old soundtracks as open source to save our aching heads (although we wouldn't be able to show off our esoteric original soundtrack CD's to our mates). I wish there would be clear cut answers to every thing in life. Mind you even physics doesn't come down to clear cut answers due to the heisenberg uncertainty principle.

Well, there is a new license format called "Creative Commons" (http://creativecommons.org/) that is being used for some artistic endeavors that has more flexible copyright terms.

Copyright doesn't just work for big corporations.  If you made music that you want to make sure nobody is ripping off your work, you can apply for copyright.  Of course, big corporations generally have more money to go after violators than the individual.

I have very little comprehension of the laws surrounding copyrights, mainly because laws are entirely opinions - not facts. By my reasoning, once one has purchased a CD, one is free to make copies and sell them, without abandon. This is because they own the CD. However, to clear up this problem, it would be much better to change some terms...

  No one ever buys or owns a CD. The evidence supporting my claim is simple - it is illegal to sell copies of a CD one purchases.

  It is far superior to say in exchange for legal tender, this CD may be listened to, privately. It's a horrible usage of words that we consumers have to deal with. We actually think we are buying and owning CDs. We are not. We are paying for the right to listen. This is my interpretation of the law.

  Basically, if you want clear cut answers, you have to make modifications, since things are often not stated clearly. The law is notorious for providing one with what seems like nonsense. This is why people have to spend years in college trying to make sense of it. In some ways, it's little different from physics.

The problem with releasing something into the public domain is that once it's released, that's it. You can't "take it back" so if they down the line WANTED to make money, they'd have competition with itself.

-Joshua

Wow, anarchist, I'm guessing?

No, actually, I'm bettering libertarian (not that that's a bad thing).

As a student of IT, I can tell you right now what encryption means:  To obfuscate the format of data.  If they only renamed the files, they would still retain their exact binary patterns and that can't be counted as encryption.  They would have to use an algorithm to modify the file so that it is no longer recognizeable in a standardized format such as redbook audio.

As far as Jodo Kast's argument is concerned, this has already been decided among modern humanity.  You can own a tangible item.  Intangible objects such as the words in a book or the binary data that represents a song that somebody wrote are known as Intellectual Property.  You can OWN a CD, but you do not have ownership of the intagible contents of the CD (the music).

I was not aware of any such decisions. Meaning I'm not a part of modern humanity, which means I'm more advanced or simply primitive. But in purely scientific terms, humanity is always modern, since time has full validity in the past, present and future. So, it turns out I don't have a choice in the matter - I'm a part of modern humanity. As usual, modifications are necessary for me to understand what the rest of you are up to.

   You're claiming that it's possible to own the actual physical material that the music is contained within. This makes some sense. For instance, I own my condo, but I do not own the spiders, insects and bacteria that are contained within.

Nope, just rather isolated. I tend more towards solipsism.

This is nowhere near as difficult as you are trying to make it.  This is just like ANY other copyright.  Somebody has a copyright for an invention, innovative idea, etc.  You are free to buy an appliance from a store, but if you take it apart to examine it, and then reproduce it to be the same as the one you bought, you are stealing from the owner of that design.  You are free to use Intellectual Property, but you cannot take away the rights of the person that created that property, such as the sole right to distribute it.

Regarding your example, that's not at all what I was talking about.  Intangible means that it has no physical existence in and of itself.  An idea doesn't exist as a physical object, it can only be conveyed through physical means such as a sound wave, light/electronic pulses on a wire or markings on paper.  Insects, bacteria, etc. have their own physical existence.  Besides, ownership of another living thing is a completely seperate debate.

Just a minor correction.  Inventions and methods/processes are protected by patent law, not copyright.  The definition of what is eligible for patent versus copyright differs entirely, and generally has a much shorter term of protection, but their goals are very similar -- to protect for a limited time someone's IP creation with monopoly status, allow him to make money off his work, and encourage him to make more.

Jodo, while you can philosophically argue the existence of property, property rights are very much defined and enforced by a nation's laws.  So for the purposes of retaining your other rights to freedom of person and property (i.e. to not be encarcerated or fined), which I'm sure you enjoy whether or not you believe they exist, a better understanding of IP laws in general is surely a good thing.

If it is illegal to make a copy of a CD you own in britain then why does the government allow mp3 players and ipods to be sold?

I can't say how factual that is, but you can buy mp3s from iTunes and the like.