I'm sure this has been asked before, but I've been thinking about how there seems to be little new blood among VGM enthusiasts lately.  It seems like the majority of regulars got hooked on game music back in the 8-bit or 16-bit days.  Many of us lament how it seems like more recent game music just doesn't have the same appeal as the early stuff.  Gaming as a whole seems to be reaching a wider audience than ever before, but it doesn't seem like VGM is reaching the same market penetration.

Most of us can point back to a single game as the game that turned us on to the wonders of VGM (usually Mega Man 2, Ys, Chrono Trigger, or one of the Final Fantasies).  My question is, what games would those be today?  If someone started gaming in the PS2 era, what games would have music that would be so inspiring that the player would keep playing the game over and over again just to listen to the music?  What modern games have such great soundtracks that they would cultivate a love for VGM in general?  Or do such games not exist anymore?

Clearly, music games (like the Bemani series) have a leg up in this regard, since the music is the pretty much the sole reason to play them.  Outside of music games, the only games I can think of would be Katamari Damacy and maybe the Guilty Gear series.  Any other thoughts?

the bling bling mtv generation has contributed to the demise of many a good things, sadly vgm has fallen underfoot as well...

No...there isn't. With today's current crop of games and the music in them, I don't really see it happening. With advances in technology, the boundary between game music and other types of music is pretty much gone. Add to that a much looser cannon of "must-play" games and I don't really see too much happening. At least, not without a dedicated effort on the user to want to explore VGM more fully.

For me, it wasn't so much 1-2 games...It was the fact that I liked the sound of what I played, be it arcade, NES, SNES...whatever. The sounds nowadays just aren't that specialized and most fit snugly and cleanly into different genres, so it's far less likely for people to see why VGM is such a huge deal. I mean, Guilty Gear...Great rock music, but unless someone craves instrumental rock, they probably aren't going to be ordering Heavy Rock Tracks anytime in the near future. Like the sound of generic Hollywood film music? You probably already voted for Jeremy Soule to win some kind of award at the latest Western VGM get-together/contest. RPG's in general have taken such a pounding from both the VGM community and the mainstream (not to mention somewhat of a lack of new meaningful faces), I don't ever see something capturing the same amount of attention FF7 did.

So my answer would be no. And I'm starting to think maybe its' for the best...

I say no because what attracted us (me at least) to VGM was it's uniqueness.  It was music, but for the most part it didn't sound like anything else you could find in the mainstream.  And like Goldfish touched on, most VGM and mainstream music doesn't sound terribly different anymore, so unless someone just really likes the music to a game (Katamari Damashii), they're not going to suddenly start listening to and buying soundtracks to games they have never played when they have a cheaper and more accessible alternative.  Most people these days probably don't even have the attention span or appreciation to listen to primarily instrumental music either.

I think the interest in VGM will only rise. For me (I'm 22 )it was the nostalgia factor kicking in)

Yeah for me growing up and being into VGM was all about chiptunes and what talented people could squeeze out of a C64 or a SNES, or Megadrive. These days it's just like anything else. Don't get me wrong - there are still plenty of good scores around but on the whole VGM is losing its very particular identity.

I really identify with what you're saying here... there aren't too many PS2 scores I consider "must owns". I have a few and sure there are some nice listens here and there, but for a majority of the series that started on the NES/SNES/PSX, I feel they have better scores in these generations than any of their new age sucessors. There are some exceptions and their are some I really do enjoy, but you can't really forget where it all started.

I wholeheartedly agree with Longhairmike on this one.

I also think that the improvement of sound quality and increasing use of live instruments, although of course a very pleasing development, has done something to "generalise" game music.
That doesn't mean that good music isn't made anymore, but I do have the rather nagging feeling it's more thin on the ground than it used to be.

That said, I absolutely loved Shadow o/t Colossus, Shadow the Hedgehog (music-wise the Sonic series is still doing very well, except for the last 2 games or so), Uematsu totally amazed me with Blue Dragon, I consider Xenosaga to be one of Mitsuda's best works and Hamauzu's work has been constantly increasing in quality as far as I'm concerned, so I wouldn't say that the new generation doesn't offer enough quality.
I love the old chiptunes as well, but to be honest, I hardly ever listen to them anymore. I can still listen to Megaman music on NES, and SNES music still works amazingly well today, but the majority of VGM I listen to nowadays is post PSX era.

For me, it was Ys Book I and II on the Turbo CD.

I feel that back then, since game music could not have the same instrument sound as actual instruments, composers tended to make the music more "jingle" like or hummable.  I felt they optimized their compositions for the limited hardware.  Now, I feel that modern consoles have removed that barrier, so compositions tend to be less jingle like and hummable.  So, the majority of soundtracks I like are arranged soundtracks of old game music, because they start with a strong melodic base and then get creative with the arrangement.

Firstly, let's define the phrase "Converting to game music", and I'd define it as when someone takes the effort to order and buy their first game soundtrack cd.

As far as getting non-vgmers (and non-gamers) to Listen and Enjoy some game music tracks, that's easy!! 

I've given custom discs to many non-vgmers, full of carefully selected vgm tracks which I know will fit what they like to hear, and they have certainly enjoyed the music!! 

But, while giving or selling one of your own soundtracks to a friend certainly arms them with quite a bit of product knowledge, there won't be any sales generated from that until they do their own shopping.  They're not truely "converted to vgm" unless they know how, and are willing to, buy a soundtrack disc on their own, and there's some hurdles in that.

For most people the biggest hurdle lies with ordering something from overseas, which many consumers (even internet savy ones) don't have experience doing... 
Even people who are comfortable with buying online from the e-sites of big name-brand stores which they are familiar with, they're not so confident when faced with importing goods from other countries.

In my experiences, the hard part isn't about "getting people turned onto vgm" it's about getting someone to place an order for the vgm they've heard and DO enjoy.

The state of game music kind of sucks now because there aren't many games that come out that have timeless music like they used to. Are fans in general really going to listen back on Tales of Destiny twenty years from now in the same way that people look back on Rockman 2's music? Will people be comparing Curse of Darkness's OST with the original Castlevania music and say things like, "Wow, that Yamane really held up in the past two decades"?

I think the ratio of quality to quantity has staggered in the past decade or so because of technological "advancements". Breaking the shackles of synthesis has been a blessing for the people that jerk off to Jeremy Soule's square head while they have Morrowind on pause, but it has been a curse for those who enjoy more unique and classic styles of VGM in their current games. Katamari Damacy's music hit home with a large crowd people because it took a more retro style of catchy, synth-laden game music and fused it with a modern approach. I mean, shit, "Wanda Wanda" sounds like a chiptune from the year 2112. I would rather listen to that stuff any day instead of hearing CDs pressed to the brim with A-flat-minor synth string swells and chintzy tribal percussion.

That said, I've personally been more interested in VGM that combines older melodic approaches with newer electronic instruments and effects and wraps it all up into a nice little package of awesome. That's not to say that I don't enjoy more "traditional" stuff sometimes (FFXI Box has been getting a lot of playtime recently), but I appreciate alternative game music a lot more than what has currently been accepted as the "norm". I feel that a good chunk of this retro-modern electronic music is coming from NAMCO's sound team, which would explain my infatuation with NST and the Nanosweep/Nanosounds album releases. The same could be said for ghm's sound team and releases like killer7 and God Hand, as well as generally weird shit like some Shadow Hearts tunes and internal section.

To me, the real future of VGM is going to depend on what artists and sound teams actually push the boundaries of creativity as opposed to pushing technology. Yeah, I'm sure you can get a synth sample to sound just like a Moroccan string quartet in a wind tunnel (actually, that sounds kind of cool now that it's out of my head and posted), but if its not used in a manner that adds to the game or soundtrack in a way that shows that the composer isn't just dotting staff lines on music sheets with predictable notes and the same scales that other crappy composers are using, then what's the point? Cluttering a game's disc space with uncompressed shitty orchestral chamber music that sounds like every other game that's cluttered with uncompressed shitty orchestral chamber music?

And now that I have characteristically gone off-topic, I'm going to listen to Tekken 4 and calm down a little.

In order to appreciate game music, one would need a mind generally unconcerned with the necessity of appearing normal. Considering that most people strive to be like everyone else, I would argue that the majority of users here are introspective. In other words, we are less concerned with outward appearances and more concerned with self. We know what we like and heartily dig in.

Those poor extroverted souls don't know what they like, which is why they all like the same thing. My point is - don't try to convert an extrovert. Since everyone else doesn't listen to game music, it would be difficult to convince them it is a legitimate behavior.

My thoughts are pretty much the same as those of everyone else here...  It's getting harder and harder to find the gamey aspect of game music these days.  I can only think of a few PS2 soundtracks that make me think, "this kind of score could only have been done for a game".  Back then pretty much everything worked because no matter how much game music tried to imitate mainstream music, it could never quite get there and the result was something uniquely transcendent.  Now that imitation is practical, and we regularly have those orchestral chamber scores Zane mentioned.  When I think game music, I think of something creative and something befitting of a game's context in a way that wouldn't fit anything else quite as well.  But since the games themselves are focusing more on realism, maybe it's more than just the sound quality thing.  You won't usually have a score like that of KD's for games like RE4 and GOW.

That being said, as far as the PS2 era goes, I think maybe Phantom Brave for me best captured the gamey energy that is unique to VGM (and I liked it a lot or I wouldn't mention it), though I rather doubt that it would convert anyone to game music.  Converting to game music means offering something that sounds more like the norm rather than less, and I guess that means sticking to the orchestral stuff and licensed music for the most part.  Truly, the only game music I've seen non-VGM fans tolerate is high sound quality/relaxing stuff and orchestrated and/or orchestral stuff, as the latter in particular seems to force a person to acknowledge the value of the music.  Even then it almost always gets deemed a lesser version of what someone already likes.

But the bigger culprit might be the fact that everyone prefers the music they grew up with regardless of how it might be classified.  Everyone has a different history to connect new music with.  Connecting VGM with personal standards formed through almost exclusive experience with mainstream music is surely tough for people.  And that subconscious familiarity is needed to make a personal connection, no matter how open minded a person wants to be.

I think some of you guys are being a tad harsh, you should give the generation that was raised on Parappa/Umjammer Lammy and other standouts from the Fujimori/Yamaoka team, the earlier resident evil scores from Masami Ueda (getting recently plagerized in DEAD SILENCE just to give an example), the countless fans of the PlayStation generation of Final Fantasies, the western acceptance of Dragon Quest and its music (finally)..
I could go on but I think y'see my point.

Oh and of course there's bound to be a glut of 'me-too' composers who lived, ate, and breathed the DDR phenomenon, but eventually they'll weed themselves out just like in natural selection.

I agree, for me it's all about the compositions rather than sound source, but the sound source is usually the reason for the strong compositions.  Like IMO the best composed game/series of the past decade is Gykauten Saiban, which obviously originated on GBA.  That's why arrange albums are such a blessing because despite often strong composotions, I pretty much can't even listen to anything chippy, midi, or even low-quality synth because it makes my ears bleed.  That's also why I'm such of a fan of the dojin stuff because it's like a continuation of the arrange albums of yesteryear.

This decrease in new VGM fans has not become apparent to my eyes, yet I haven't been around the online communities since the beginning to witness the progression as a whole, but I'll take your words about it. I understand the possible causes that were mentioned so far and I agree it would be harder to become a huge fan of game music these days. There are some other points that I believe might help to explain the phenomenon, and I'll also take the opportunity to respond to a couple of opinions that were shared so far since I was shocked by some!

First, to become a fan of game music, being a gamer helps a lot! You get the chance of being exposed to it directly which makes you develop an affinity for the sound, structure or how it's connected to what happens in-game. Then, listening to VGM outside of its primary context becomes easier than for someone that never played to games, or that actually hates them, and that's one of the reasons their "door" is usually shut tight. In theory, new gamers should also fall under this concept, since they are in contact with VGM and thus have the opportunity of enjoying it. So why isn't it working as good today? Many reasons obviously, like those you already mentioned. The music today doesn't sound as unique in huge part because of the more advanced technology and the realistic sound, that's for sure. For many current gamers, appreciating the music in such games would thus lead them to become more of a music fan than a VGM fan I guess, in relation to considering "VGM" as the more retro/electronic style here. Is that necessarily a bad thing? If the music sucks, I'd say "yes". If not, even if it sounds like mainstream music, it's not a problem, or at least not on that level, because what's most important is that the person enjoys the music, whatever genre it is (and there's so many genres and tastes, there's something for everyone!). Actually, I consider myself a fan of music first, who also happens to appreciate game music. When I hear a good rock song from a game, and know it sounds like a real rock tune from the radio, I still like it, and don't try to reject what's there because it's not like "VGM". And I enjoy the song from the radio too. I believe this is one of the big problems with some VGM fans; they believe that in order to be a real fan, you have to listen exclusively to VGM, or at least have it at the top of your list, and that you must dig the old or unique style, because the rest shouldn't even be considered to be VGM. I can't deny that this is being a fan of it, but it's being "hardcore". To me, VGM is any music that is found within a game (you can discard licensed songs though), even if it's not mainly electronic-based or ultra-melodic. However, I'm not blind and I know there are certain styles that are specific to this category of music, and by using the term "VGM", those styles get a larger part of the definition, but still, not all of it.

I guess this topic relates to one that was discussed here recently, about how much VGM is in your playlist compared to non-game music. I'm certain many of the "first-generation" harcore VGM fans don't listen to much of anything outside of it. This doesn't mean it's a bad thing. However, it becomes bad when they start to criticize how people can't see how great VGM is and that it's only because of MTV and that those people can't tolerate instrumental music (and that the only instrumental categories are VGM, classical and that shitty jazz song they heard at their uncle's house 5 years ago). It's ironic, they shout at something they also do: closing eyes on something unknown. A testimony of ignorance with a dose of stubborness! Sure, it's possible their favorite music is from games, but bringing forth that everything else sucks is quite radical, especially when it's impossible that they heard all music that exists in life. While I won't cry, I still find it's sad for them...

Back in the old gaming days, Internet wasn't really around. So, for geeky gamers, their main source for music was from video games. Growing up, some lost this interest, while it became more solid for others, like the VGM fans here. There are many factors implied in this enjoyability, but the nostalgia and familiarity with the styles and sounds, as well as the security they provide, sure do play a big role. Also, not having been exposed to other music they could like (either because they didn't pay attention to radio and bought CDs, or because they didn't dig what they were hearing), made them go deeper into VGM and ignore the rest even more. Today, with Internet being fully developed, it's so easier to explore music, it's unbelievable! Legal or not, it gives the possibility to people to discover things they would have never thought existed. So, the geeky kid who likes video games is not as limited as a decade and more ago to which music he is exposed to and what he can learn to enjoy. Does this mean he won't like VGM? Absolutely not, but he sure will have more chances to grow up as a music lover (game music is not excluded) rather than only a VGM fan (excludes other music categories, or at least a large part). I believe this is one of the reasons why there won't be as much VGM(-only) fans in the future. I guess it's bad for the state of the retro tunes, but what is really good should be timeless classics, and the creation of new material in the same style (while not having to be chiptunes) shall be welcome as long as it's the trend (because that's how the industry goes), even if the fans want more of it. Different styles should also be welcome, for the sake of diversity, even if they are not as creative as the ones back then or some today. And if you believe the only thing time and development brought to VGM is orchestral snooze-fest, check again! However, if what you seek is only the classic VGM style with a different sound (and this also applies for VGM fans who are looking for non-game tunes), I agree it's hard to be pleased and it's even deceiving, but on the other hand, there are people existing aside from you who can actually enjoy other styles, so this situation is not completely bad (it doesn't always have to be "all" or "nothing"). Broadening horizons is a wonderful thing, but keeping a certain focus on the things we prefer is also essential. Also, about what Jodo Kast mentioned, I agree that in order to be a real VGM fan, you have to be independant from the generic preconceived ideas of society (the mainstream), since this music can be considered as being poor or in association with VG/anime nerds (which is in part true, but I'm trying to dissociate myself from it as much as I can). Actually, this should be applied to everything in life in my opinion, as long as it follows a certain logic and ethic. But I think some people reject everything too fast, be it those who don't listen to VGM and the VGM fans who don't listen to other music. It's as if all things have to be categorized as being "black" or "white". "I won't play that music because nobody does, and it sucks" vs. "I won't play that music because everybody does, and it sucks". Ignorance also comes in here; you don't need to be 100% into something to appreciate parts of it. Also, it's funny to note that there is also a mainstream within VGM.

On to answering to what recent game music would captivate someone enough to generate a devotion to VGM, I'm also not very certain. I have to admit that some of my tastes aren't popular ones in comparison to other VGM fans around, so even if I'd mention a certain soundtrack that would actually lead me toward a conversion, it might not apply to others. From what I observed though, I guess RPG still fetch the most people, especially the anime fans. FFX-XII, Atelier, etc. Girls are actually very much falling under that category as far as I can tell, not that it's very pertinent. On the Western side, the main entry points seem to be popular games, in the like of strategy and shooters. But I'm wondering how many actually listen to the music after they have downloaded it (OSTs usually don't exist). Again, this question depends on if people have to like VGM because it's VGM or because they like the "M" part; the first would be more likely to hook then on, but the second can still have them enjoy VGM. Also, some soundtracks these days might seem to be not as good as old ones, but there is the notion of comparison and look back in play, so in 10 years, they might seem better than today (or worse, hehe).

I'll finish by commenting on what Carl said, because it irritates me to a great extent. I'd like to mention it's nothing personal, but implying that "Converting to game music", which should be the same thing as becoming a VGM fan if we're under the same definition, is to order an official CD album from overseas, it's ridiculous! Sure, I understand your point and agree it's a good action to encourage the VGM industry, but at the basis, it has nothing to do with being able to enjoy game music. I guess it falls down to the fact we must have a different point of view on VGM. From your comment, I would say you view it as a collector, that VGM is mainly about the pressed CDs and other official releases. Several websites are built this way too, focusing on a database of albums. On the other hand, I consider the starting point of VGM to be from the games themselves. You can appreciate the music while playing the game it was composed for, and then sure, you can also listen to it outside of context, by buying original/arranged soundtracks or by doing/finding a custom-made soundtrack (i.e. game rip). You can listen to the soundtrack directly without having played to the game too, it doesn't matter, but it's just that game music goes with games for its origin. In that idea, the fact there are so many games that don't have soundtrack CDs makes it clear to me that the games themselves should be the source point and not albums (these come after, a bonus of some sort). So, you can develop an interest for game music without having to buy an album CD, although doing this doesn't goes against it and is more moral when an OST exists (and is easily purchasable). That's what I perceived from yout comment, but if I got you wrong, please tell me.

Rimo, I agree with your view as well, there's nothing wrong with enjoying the game music just through playing the game itself.   You correctly called it a "Starting Point".     

But a starting point isn't the same as a "converting point". 

I'd turn on the FF3 SNES cartridge and just let it sit at the title screen and enjoy the Crystal Theme repeating for hours on end....  I'd love every minute of Rockman 2 on the NES and get completely energized by the tunes, so it's clear there was enjoyment from the music....

There was lots of music which rocked my socks off: Contra, Dracula, Zelda, even Tetris.
Yet that is still just enjoying THE GAMES and the cool music was just a part of those games.
They were still intertwined and codependant on eachother. 

Many years later when I was in college, and e-commerce shopping and mp3s were just beginning, did I catch the first glimpse into a world of VGM that existed which I had no idea of previously.

I saw a soundtrack to Chrono Trigger, and that was the light bulb moment - the HOLY SHIT! moment which competely blows your mind - when the music truely became it's own stand alone product, giving it an importance and legitimacy of deserving to exist on it's own.

THAT is when I was transformed into a VGM fan, even though I'd already been listening to the music for about a decade already.   That was the "conversion point" which is different from the starting point, when a whole new passion springs to life and these albums take on a life of their own.

Maybe I'm the crazy one here, but hopefully that explains my view a bit. 
Making the investment of purchasing the music, as it's own product, is when you can truely say you love VGM.   You're no longer just listening, you're becoming a part of the process, like how the audience at a live concert gives energy back to the performer onstage, you're now completing the circle.

I wasn't really using "starting point" in that sense, but this would be true as well. What I was implying is that game music exists without official CD albums (arranged and exclusive material on CD is an exception, but that's a subtility). So, by considering that to be a VGM fan and have a true listening experience, you have to start or you must continue with pressed CDs, that would be completely false. For example, like I already mentioned, there is a huge amount of game music that was not published as albums, so you'd miss all that share from the start. It could be argued that the best soundtracks were published anyway, so it wouldn't matter, but that would be a poor excuse and not an incontestable truth. In my opinion, this is one of the major flaws that is apparent in certain VGM websites and hardcore VGM veterans. They consider that CD albums are the most important thing (starting point) and that the games (for which the music was created for) come after. So, they list or discuss about albums instead of the music itself, and databases are missing a major portion of game music as a whole.

Someone could be a VGM fan while just hearing the music in-game, and this would make him a relatively small fan. But if he'd want to take things further, he could record/rip the music from the games, and then listen to it out of context, then he would be more of a real VGM fan. An example would be all those people mentioning they recorded VGM on cassette tapes back in the days. If an OST exists for a certain game, he could buy it, yes, since it makes the music more easily accessible, rather than having to record it himself. I concur that the huge VGM market is a great thing, that it can help people to get more serious as a VGM fan by both realizing there is a lot of music and it can be listened to outside of the games, for those who aren't able to rip the music from the games and that don't have enough time to do it much. So yeah, it has a positive impact, but I would rather consider it as a "boost" than a "starter", especially since it doesn't apply to all game soundtracks. VGM doesn't have to be on an official album to be a stand alone product (something you can listen to), and you don't have the obligation to purchase those to enjoy the music, especially when a specific soundtrack wasn't released on CD.

For a VGM CD collector however, the converting point would indeed be the purchase of a CD and discovering the whole market. I believe you when you say it was your conversion to VGM, by becoming more serious about it, and that it was probably the case for many other people, but I wouldn't go as far as saying it was the case for everybody and that it's the only way. Also, all of the exclusive material only avaible on such albums, like arranged tracks and unreleased ones, is a wonderful thing and it's a blessing those exists. Still, I consider them to be "extras", yet less than an OST though. Even if they wouldn't exist, like OSTs, a VGM fan could still be able to enjoy game music, but those albums sure make things even better and easier.

I don't consider you're crazy or anything like that, and I understand what you're saying. Like I said, I replied to your comment because I guess we have a different approach to VGM. There's no "good" or "bad", yet I definitely don't go along with your main point.

I’ll be damned if I don’t love this topic.

I think that as VGM has begun to sound less unique than it has in the past, one way out of many possibilities it will have to coincidentally reel in new fans is to match up the music with “emotion capturing moments” – times when music can encapsulate a memory for whomever. This really isn’t up to the music itself, perhaps not even the melodrama of the game (RPGs, I’m looking at you). Much in the way people can love the song that played at their prom, so be it with a track or ten from a certain video game. Music will always be powerful in that regard, and the VGM of today has that potential even if it might sound like “everything else.” It’s just now on an even playing field with the likes of film (thinking in terms of a general audience).

As for the album/game source music argument, I think Carl and Rimo are both right. I would often play games just to hear their music. But it wasn’t really until I found out that albums were published of them that it “legitimized” listening to it in my mind. Hard to explain, but before that moment, it almost wasn’t as if I was listening to music at all. It was just another way to sap enjoyment out of a game experience.

Besides that, they will probably ruin it for us sooner or later.

I'm totally behind Rimo on this one. I don't see why I would actually have to buy a VGM OST to be considered a real VGM fan. Not that I don't own a decent collection of official OSTs (although nowhere near as much as most people on this board), but I don't think that makes me anything more or less than anyone else who has been listening to nothing but rips all his life.

For me, I started liking computer generated music even in the days before the NES when VGM really WAS nothing more than bleeps and bloops, although I didn't start recording my own tapes until I got an NES. I didn't get my first VGM CD until I was 18 or 19 or something (1997/98), and that was a SonMay CD because I knew nothing about that at the time. My first legit OST, I didn't buy until even one year later (Xenogears).

The first time I found out about real VGM OSTs was when I saw an advert for Chrono Trigger in some magazine somewhere (might have been a bootleg as well for all I knew), which affirmed for me that I wasn't the only one listening to VGM outside of the game, but it didn't make me feel more "legitimized" in any way, or any more of a VGM fan.
Even if someone's only been listening to CD-Rs of rips or originals all his life, I still wouldn't consider him less of a VGM fan, just less concerned with morality

I don't think Carl is saying that buying a cd legitimizes someone as a VGM fan.  Just that it confirms it in a sense.  It's like how someone can be a fan of film music by watching movies, but buying the music on its own also says something.  I'm glad that VGM gets enough respect to be released in album form.  Buying it is indeed a way of demonstrating your love for it.  It's like surefire proof because not just any gamer would bother buying an album.  Those who do can be said to be complete fans.  Not "true" fans just based on having some, as owning every liked album is impractical even for the biggest fans, but those that wouldn't consider listening to VGM outside of the context outnumber those who listen to rips and would just rather avoid paying the arm and a leg you sometimes have to for the official stuff.  When someone is willing to fork out money for game music, you know for sure that they've "converted".  I think that's all Carl means by "completing the circle".  I'm sure that every VGM fan here owns a number of original albums out of the love they have for the music and the legacy of that music.  Someone who never went past the starting point might never have even thought twice about owning the music for themselves.  But like many fans, I recorded a few tapes in my time, because I wanted to hear the music even when I wasn't playing the games.  Finding out later that there were official albums (through gamecave and gamemusic in my videogame magazine ads) was a wonderful thing.  It made me realize that VGM was a respected form of art beyond just my personal feelings on it.  I bet we all remember our first VGM albums.  Mine was Final Fantasy VI OSV.  I ordered it over the phone from gamemusic since my family didn't have the internet then.  The joy I got out of the nice packaging and hearing the music on CD for the first time was really something.

Yeah, it's kind of hard to think of "converting to VGM" as simply purchasing CD's. I made tapes seven years before buying my first load of CD's and even before then, I liked the music in several games I played. So converting to me is when people make an attempt at exploring what is out there or picking up a game and paying attention to the music more, then wanting to hear more of it out of context. But again, that becomes a lot easier when VGM already sounds like stuff people are already used to hearing out of context...the leap between now and the early days of chiptunes and earlier developments (the move to CD sound) isn't there. There isn't that escape that VGM used to provide. That's why I don't think there are any scores out there right now that would capture the uniqueness that "classic" VGM had VS everything else and even if there are, odds are they're too niche to make any sort of impact. I might see someone getting the soundtrack for a Final Fantasy title on iTunes or whatnot due to nostalgia, but still have the pre-conceived notion of "VGM is bleeps and bloops and nothing I'd listen to" in their outlook (see the paradox there?). If anything, modern VGM practices and the ritual of following composers from project-to-project has greatly softened my own acceptance of more "mainstream" artists and even older chiptunes and it's really helped with phasing out names and soundtracks I might have only cared about because they were "VGM composers".

Now that we've discussed past history a bit, what about how we affect the future of vgm?

On one hand, it's pretty much up to the game development staffs to make sure the music is unique and interesting, so it would fall to the game's producer to hire someone who'd make good tunes.  Not much control we have over that, as most of us are in other careers besides game development.   

And sure, there exists many bland and boring official vgm soundtracks too, so things aren't perfect right now by any means...  but there's always room for more improvement!!   So what types of things can we do to improve the situation?

When even vgmfans say it's not terribly important to buy the good soundtracks, that'll have a reverse effect on the future offerings!  If we don't support the cds which ARE here, even if lots of good games don't currently get soundtracks, how can there be any future growth to progress the scene?

Where would we as a community end up if the official soundtracks disappear because we don't buy them?  Do we really want to be faced with only having homemade gamerips and ....that's it?  That would seem to me like making the situation worse by de-centralizing it!

Guess this would be a poll: Do you think the whole vgm-scene would be worse off without any official soundtracks or not?

I see the existence of official soundtracks as both an asset and a curse. They make music used in games easier to access for the mainstream. But there is also a widespread mindset of simply ignoring music which didn't get any official release which is very counterproductive considering the huge majority of music in games is affected. Related to that I furthermore think music in games won't get any significant respect as long as people keep up the notion that the music should be heard in context of its game.

As for the general topic, in the past the limitations for music in games forced composers to make interesting style combinations. E.g. something like jazz music arranged for chip synths could be considered an own kind of lo-fi electronica if it weren't direly associated with games. The fact it usually is associated in such way even by many of its composers themselves (often mentioning "annoying limitations" they had to "work around") made such "incidental" styles disappear again with the appearace of better synthesisers and streamed/recorded music everywhere. So in the end the "unique" asset music in games still has today is actually no different from music in other media: composers and their choices of sound design and composing style. So what we see now imo is the separating of the wheat from the chaff regarding composers' originality and creativity.

Btw. Zane, I don't know why you included Tales of Destiny as one of your examples (unless you refer to the butchered "OST"). I personally think its "failed" (as far as sounding realistic) sound design makes it one of the more sympathetic PS1 synth soundtracks and is likely to keep more of its charm in the future than other more "realistic" soundtracks (I'm seeing a similar effect with the PS1 FF soundtracks).

It was just one of the games that was at the tip of my fingers. Nothing personal against the album at all, but I'm just saying that for the majority an album such as that one won't hold the longevity or full-on nostalgic appeal that other, older game soundtracks have. Maybe I should have compared it to another RPG like FFIV instead of Rockman 2 to keep things in the same genre of games.

To quote myself from my earlier post: to me, the real future of VGM is going to depend on what artists and sound teams actually push the boundaries of creativity as opposed to pushing technology. And also, I'd like to add that I believe that artists really need to stray from the norm. Build a little bit instead of being content to stay within the generic unpainted corner of the room that they've composed themselves into; Mitsuda did this with Armodyne, and I'm equally pleased with the music and the (slightly) experimental approach Mitsuda took with the album. It's better than trying to emulate Front Mission 4/5/Online.

This all boils down to perception, personal taste, the sound/designer team's choice in music (or the freedom they allow their composers) and the content of the game. Unfortunately, a lot of sound teams and composers have a knack for composing bland and boring music, and this shit is being pressed to disc and is cluttering up Play-Asia like a giant knot of hair in a sink drain. Personally, I'm almost sick of hearing the same "tried and true" "style" of game music, specifically those tied to RPGs. Slightly ominous cave theme? Check. Relaxed town theme(s)? Check. Synth-rock boss theme? Check. Ambient somewhat-melodic forest theme? Check. Then again, someone could go through my iPod and say the same thing about different songs; obnoxious vocal techno song? Check. Loose heavy metal? Check. Weird shit that nobody else likes? Check. But for RPG soundtracks, which constitutes a good chunk of the total CD releases that are currently available, the stuff that isn't already nostalgic for one reason or another (FFIV-IX for me) is easily forgotten and thrown into the vast pit of generic game music that gets released monthly, and how.

But to some people, the more "normal" style of VGM is gold. It's like Gust Sound Team (or any other team you can think of) is King Midas and they're reaping the benefit. Just like any other genre or subculture of music and personal taste, one man's God Hand is the next man's Final Fantasy Potion 2. And I'm guilty of playing on both sides of the field; I did just buy the FFXI Premium Box recently, and I have been enjoying it a lot despite the fact that a lot of people find it "bland and boring".

I think that the only thing people can really do to keep the VGM scene going or to improve the current situation is to support game music. I don't mean just buy albums you like when they're released, I mean support and interact within and outside of the community. Post on message boards, spread the word, hunt down obscure OSTs to complete that collection of yours (for this week, at least), and most importantly listen to the damn music.

I would say so, yes. Most of the stuff that's floating around out there (er, here) on the internet are MP3s that were ripped from some sort of CD release at one point or another; the CD-to-gamerip ratio is very much in favor of pressed albums compared to fan-made recordings. I'm sure that eventually albums will be released digitally to save money for the companies, help preserve the environment by not using physical materials, etc., but for no I think that if companies stopped releasing OSTs the scene would see a steady decline. I think the lack of official releases in one form or another would take away from the collective fire that new releases fuel.

One of the important things about the existence of official VGM album releases would be that they give people some sort of indirect vote on whether or not they liked the music or not. Of course this works far from perfectly: most people will probably only buy albums of games they actually played, and fans of a particular game may buy an album regardless of whether they truly liked the music for collector's purposes. And as Datschge already mentioned, not all games get soundtrack releases. I'm not sure game developers care either way, though.

Although I enjoy listening to VGM on its own, naturally I do think a composer should above all else be concerned with how music functions in the game. The first Silent Hill is a good example of this: there are probably not that many people who would enjoy its industrial style soundtrack on its own, but in the context of the game it works perfectly. I believe VGM should first and foremost be judged in this context. In the past VGM was often used to convey and provoke emotion and atmosphere where graphics or other means (like voice acting) fell short, but now both of these things can be communicated to the player even without any music at all. Maybe this is another reason VGM has become less pronounced. At the same time a lot of composers seem either content to repeat the same styles over and over (RPG soundtracks are big offenders here) or imitate other styles already done to death in movies.

I would love for VGM to take a more prominent position in games again, but looking at the current state of the industry, I can't help but get the feeling it is more of an afterthought for most developers. Ideally musical direction should be considered as soon as in the conceptual stage of a game's development, in order for the composer to be involved with the designing process and to allow for a more dynamic, interactive way of incorporating music in a game. Silent Hill and Rez are two good examples of this approach, but sadly they are little more than exceptions to the rule.

Okay, the future...

For American VGM, a continuation towards licensed garbage or the Hollywood film score ripoff. Some exceptions will occur. I've already labeled this area a lost cause (since the more mainstream "acceptance" of VGM has hindered on the expansion of these two areas and it's not a good thing at all), although I have been pleasantly surprised a couple of times. These live concerts in theory are a nice way of gaining acceptance, but I have to question the use of an orchestra as a main source of delivery when so much game music is inherently electronic.

For Japanese...Quality and diverse scores will continue to arise (I can't argue with Ys Origin, PS3 Sonic and Wild Arms Vth Vanguard from this year, although I largely preferred their predecessors), but the main thing is that Japanese games themselves are becoming less and less important in the industry. So the occurances where you have a game brought over with a killer soundtrack that everyone needs to hear will be lower because a fewer number of people will have played the game. Perfect example: Armodyne. Does anyone really care about the game? Short answer: Of course not, the hardcore VGM fans care about the music because Mitsuda composed the score. And really...Is that concept any different than following a mainstream artist you enjoy? Coupled with the fact there are only a handful of recurring artists (whose names I see far too often) and the current console mess (not to mention the near-complete dirth of quality arranged albums, as compared to the last decade and factoring in the hardcore nature of the doujin scene) and I don't see any kind of expansion for VGM in the near future. Or for that matter, much reason for newer fans to take as much of an interest in it as people who basically had the chance to grow up with it.

Basically, VGM will continue as it has the last couple years, but less emphasis on the "VG" and more on the "M". I can see newer (and older) fans latching onto individual artists and albums, but not so much through playing the games...Which kinda defeats the purpose of "VGM".

Well put, man. I think stuff like Play is a great idea (the show I went to was a great experience), but you're totally right. I am a strong VGM fan, so I knew what I was getting into; I knew the source material and wanted to see the outcome at the concert. I didn't go in there thinking, "Let's see what video game music sounds like now that it's not bleeps and bloops anymore!", or "I want to hear FINAL FANTASY!" It gives off a false (and overly American) picture of what Japanese game music sounds like.

That style of performing VGM is fine and all, but it takes less orchestral VGM and tilts it toward that direction. It's kind of deceptive. Take "Time's Scar" from Chrono Cross; listening to the song on the OST makes me picture a small group of musicians, maybe 8 or so, playing with some relatively un-symphonic instruments. A fiddle and a violin did the job well on the OST, but adding a 100 piece orchestra to the equation lessens the integrity of the original song and makes it sound very much like a lot of other songs that use full orchestras. I remember hearing the intro to that song at Play on the acoustic guitar, but once the orchestra kicked in the original song just kind of melted into a big ball of brass and strings.

Here's my solution: take the Arnie Roth and Tallarico concerts that have been going around for the past few years, and end them. Stop with the orchestral stuff, stop playing One Winged f---ing Angel for a half hour as an encore, and have some concerts that show off different sides of game music. Yeah, it might not be a commercial success, but you show me someone who considers VGM to be a commercial success and I'll probably struggle to maybe show you a fellow STC member. Then again, here in America, music is almost always "licensed garbage" or a "Hollywood film score ripoff", so seeing something like Sakuraba live here in the States is a futile wish, but I can still hope.

If I go down to the bank and take out a $300,000 loan to make a Sakuraba show happen over here, am I really going to make my money back? 

My usual optimistic self would like to hope so, but a dose of Goldfishes' visions of gloom-and-doom would point otherwise. 

If you don't need vgm CDs to be a vgmfan, then are varied Live Concerts that would bring the composers here vital enough that people would rather spend the money on those instead?

It would seem so, and may be true for some, but for me the VG part is just another outlet for being introduced to good music.  Is traditional spanish music going to have more meaning for some imbedded in that culture, sure, but doesn't mean someone from Iceland can't enjoy and appreciate that style of music.  That's the beauty of music no matter the source, anyone can take their own intrepetation and worth from it.  Life's too short to try to "listen to music the right way" or "watch movies the right way" or "play games the right way", plus the "right way" isn't always the most enjoyable for everyone.

I guess that a full orchestra sometimes takes away from the directness and intimacy of the music, but it really depends on how it's being used.  I know I've sometimes had problems with music that is too complex in a sense.  It's like comparing the music from Soul Edge to the music of Soul Calibur 2.  I like the former more because I can follow each development in a track and really get into it.  With the latter it's like the melody and intended directness is sometimes lost in a wall of sound.  I do think sometimes that personal taste has to do with how much accompaniment is okay and how much is too much, as I personally see Sakimoto as often having enough hooks whereas some don't, but even I feel like American VGM sometimes falls into the orchestral chamber music aka forgettable zone.  I say American and not western because you still have guys like Graeme Norgate who go full on with a synthetic sound.  They're just rarely in the spotlight in comparison to Soule.

As for official soundtracks, I think we'd be worse off without them for sure.  While they might lead some to ingore those game soundtracks which don't get official releases, I think the positives outweigh the negatives.  After all, for those ignoring unreleased scores there are also those who clamor for such unreleased scores to get a release.  Official scores help accessibility and accessbility means more fans.  Sure, it's a double-edged sword in terms of what kinds of fans you might get, but we've already had to deal with that sort of thing as gamers since the release of the Playstation.  I suppose you just can't have the best of both worlds.  If people have a desire to expand their horizons, then hopefully they'll opt to visit forums like this one and do some seeking out of information on their own as well.

Still the same Nemo...

Depends on one's definition of the right way.  For me the purpose of trying to do anything the right way is only to get as much enjoyment out of it as you can.  A different perspective can do that sometimes.  However, where I think we both agree is that ultimately it's up to the person to decide which perspective is right for them.

That was basically my point...I don't see how to truly "convert" someone to VGM nowadays when VGM is becoming far more "normalized". While I see someone listening to an artist or an album for some quality music and maybe wanting to explore further, I don't see too many actual games that would have the same effect and even then, the import-heavy nature of VGM ensures it will remain niche and specialized. The question is: How to get someone interested in the artist or the album to begin with (or to make them aware), if the game isn't an option...That's the dilemma for encouraging "new recruits", if you will. iTunes is a nice start (sort of), soundtracks as bonuses are nice (VERY nice), more official domestic albums sitting in music or game stores would be better (it's beyond me why SOMEONE hasn't licensed full versions of the Final Fantasy soundtracks AT LEAST...It'd be the perfect gateway drug for getting more releases out there)...I don't really get the point of the concerts without more of a grassroots effort like that to legitimize VGM, other than the shock value to the general public and even as a fan, I question the medium used and view them as little more than a novelty at this point in time. I mean, in popular music, you have an album release, then a tour to promote it. How does VGM manage to get to the concert part without the (domestic) album part?

Maybe I'm just tired of being a spokesperson for the medium and feel its' time to get some help from the people responsible for it (publishers and whatnot). Maybe I'm just expecting too much from the recluse nature of the Japanese market, but look at the anime boom of recent years (including domestic music releases at stores like Suncoast, no less...I NEVER thought I'd see domestic releases of the Princess Nine soundtracks, a series no other anime fan knows exists or cares about). Otherwise, VGM will continue like it is, with respect to its' niche audience. It's like the ebay scam thing with that customspecialists asshole or even the known bootleggers...No one wants to step in and defend their copyrights, so it gets harder and harder to feel for the guys that are losing money (although it doesn't lessen any feelings of wanting to kill the guys behind it). It's starting to feel like a losing battle at this point...I'm personally fine, since I know quality stuff will always be coming along and where to get it, but I'm running out of reasons to explain why people should care about VGM as its' own entity.

Then, compounding the mess, I have to look at *guh* Grand Theft Auto "soundtracks" at every game and/or music store I visit...That's just insult to injury.

I know what you mean, the thing is companies like Tokyopop and Mars Colony tried to do the whole localizing import music thing, but it never really count on outside of the people already in the scene.  So what incentive will there be for other companies to do it?  And while I agree about bonus soundtrack CDs with games being a great way to promote the medium, I think too many people look at it like that's how it should be, a free novelty.  Why pay almost as much for the soundtrack as you did for the original game?  And with all the downloadable material out there so easily accessed, how many people who are actually developing an interest in game music do you think will pay $30 per album? Not many. 

But I suppose it has to start somewhere, I mean it did with all of us.  An album comes along you really want, and while you're hesitant to pay $30, you convince yourself to do it, and once you realize it was worth the price of admission, you buy other albums.  You just sacrafice other things in your life, like food.  Or it's even easier to start with a relatively inexpensive album like Secret of Mana for $20, and realize buying game music may a little more expensive than a CD at Sam Goody (do they even still exist?), but it's totally worth it to buy those albums you really like and will listen to over and over.  I just wish more quality arrange albums like Rocking Heart were still being made, because they provide an experience separate from the game and can showcase what VGM can really be about.

Of course not that any of this really matters, it wasn't until fairly recently that Japanese artists even recognized the fact they have a Western fanbase.  And even now, it's primarily just the "legends" that are aware, and yet how much of an impact does our support really have in the grand scheme of things?

No, but I'd be your best friend in the world. I'd help you sell lemonade and OSTs to chip away at that payment.