So I was talking with a guy on the train, and the topic came to video games. His opinion, basically, was that video games reached their peak around the late 80's, early 90's, and that current games will never be as great as the ones from the past generation. As an example, he referenced Super Mario Bros. 3 for the NES, and called it a gaming masterpiece.

I'm not here to argue with anyone, but it got me thinking; In the context of gaming, what defines a masterpiece?

I originally disagreed with the man, thinking that SMB 3 lacks a sense of cohesion, outside of its' linear gameplay. Still a great game, but I wouldn't call it a masterpiece, although I can certainly see why he would.

I then turned to games that I've been known to regard as masterpieces, and the first one that popped into my head was Metal Gear Solid (PSX). I regard it thusly because in my opinion, it was the total package. Excellent story, pacing, characters, gameplay, music, presentation, voice acting, everything. Not a single flaw that I could see then, or now. You know? Maybe it's the driving sense of purpose when developing a game that could make some see it as a masterpiece.

But I wonder? Can it be at all possible to make a masterpiece without that sense of purpose? If you, as a game creator, are not striving for that greatness, can it nevertheless be reached?

What are your thoughts? What defines a gaming masterpiece, in your opinion, and based on your personal criteria, what would you choose?

I'm not going to try to qualify what determines a masterpiece, but I will offer up some examples of games that I feel are true masterpieces.

Super Mario Bros. 3 (NES)
-No explanation necessary.

Super Metroid (SNES)
-Amazing exploration and atmosphere.

Chrono Trigger (SNES)
-Everything about this game comes together perfecty: story, graphics, music, gameplay, it's all seamless and wonderful.  And that's why it's the best game ever.

GoldenEye 007 (N64)
-Insanely good level design and deep, deep, gameplay coupled with a divine multiplayer mode.

The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time (N64)
-The sense of joy and wonder as you explore is unparrelled.  I loved A Link to the Past and Link's Awakening, but this made Zelda the real deal for me.

Resident Evil 4 (NGC)
-Some of the tighest gameplay I've ever seen... I played each room multiple times until I could do each one perfectly 'cause it was that damn good.

Personally, I think "masterpiece" is outdated, overrated and overused too much, at least as far as general gaming goes. If I read "FFXII is a masterpiece", as I have many (many) times already...Okay, if you're talking about Matsuno's repetoire, yeah I can see that. But if you're talking about among videogames and RPG's in general...It sounds more than a little ignorant, especially to people who generally don't like Matsuno's games. Same thing with Halo or Grand Theft Auto supposedly "raising the bar" for the previous generation of games, which just made me cringe every time I read it.

Very rarely would I use masterpiece to describe something in general, as opposed to artist or even company-specific. I think "classic" would be a much better term. If I were to sit down and define a "classic", it would simply be something that's fun to play, looks good, sounds good, is well-designed, offers some innovation to the genre it belongs to, actually holds my attention from start to finish (and not in the "good god, I can't wait until this POS is over" way) and has stuff that makes me want to keep playing it. It's gotten incredibly rare to find games that meet that simple criteria.

And what the hell...Classics that come to mind:

Mario 3: The perfect platformer in my mind. I wish more platformers nowadays would take cues from all the stuff this game does right (especially the play controls).

Megaman 2: For a game that's as easy as this, I admit I play it again and again for the beautiful aesthetics and tight play control. I would also regard MM1, MM3, MM4, MM7 and MAYBE MM8 as classic, but no doubt MM2 is the best. Also see: Megaman X1/X4/X5 and MM Legends 1.

Contra/Super C: See above, minus the "easy" part for Super C.

Guitar Hero: The concept is simple, the execution is the fun part that gives it longevity, especially if you dig the music. They can milk it for years as long as they keep the core gameplay intact (eyes the amount of Bemani games in Japan). Adding more junk like the guitar battles against the CPU in III...Not a good idea. Not what makes the game fun or what drew people to it in the first place.

Tetris DS/Puzzle Bobble 2/Puchi Carat/Tetris GB/Pokemon Puzzle: Dreadfully simple ideas, unlimited replayability. The 1P modes in the two Tetris games are like two different games and I wish Pokemon Puzzle had online (instead of Planet Puzzle), but it's basically the same game. The 1P mode and graphics/music of the Puzzle Bobble 2 are my favorite of the series.

RBI Baseball 2/Tecmo Super Bowl: Say what you want...These are more fun than the most realistic simulations you can make to me. It'd rock if they remade these every year with updated stats/teams. Everything I expect from baseball/football games.

Final Fight/Double Dragon/Dynasty Warriors 4: You punch stuff, you throw stuff and you try to stay alive. Simple, but effective.

Cardfighters Clash: They made a fun video-collectible card game. Go figure. One of only a few games I've given over 200 hours to.

Galaga: Still amazing how a simple idea and a perfect execution go together. Shoot bugs, dodge beams, memorize patterns.

Burnout 3: Simple concept, braindead physics...But man, is it fun to wreck stuff.

Klonoa 1 and 2: Check and check...Not much to see here except platforming perfection (aside from being a bit on the easy side...Klonoa: Lost Levels would be VERY welcome).

Marvel vs Capcom 1/Street Fighter Alpha 2/Guilty Gear XX#Reload: My favorite fighting games and the ones all others have to live up to.

FF4, FF6, FF7, Chrono Trigger, Valkyrie Profile, Star Ocean 2, Ys VI, Suikoden 1/2/5 and La Pucelle: Same deal, but for RPG's.

Not all, but those are the most obvious ones when I think "classic".

Oh, man. I so did not want to sound pretentious. I was just trying to ask what games you feel are timeless. I guess I could've worded it a bit better, huh?

Nah, it's cool...Just a minor pet peeve, moreso with how it's been used over the years by the mainstream gaming press and fanboys of respective games/series' than anything.

Being a jaded gamer seems to be all the rage these days.

I say: 2005 for instance had RE4 and Shadow of the Colossus, both true Masterpieces/Timeless Classics (call it what you want) in their own right.
Gaming has not reached its peak, and it most CERTAINLY hasn't done so at the end of the 80's. It's just that the old generation of gamers has grown whinier and bitchier.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1raUvGNbZFg

As weird as it seems I won't deny the truth in that statement, well, at least when it comes to my case

Anyway, here are some games that are masterpieces to me - considering we're using terms relatively:

(NES) Ninja Gaiden + Ninja Gaiden II: The Dark Sword of Chaos:
I can't think of another sidescroller that came so alive through its storyline thanks to the makeshift "cut scenes" sprinkled throughout. The third game was dumb though.

(NES) Mega Man II + VI
Mega Man II was the first MM game I ever played so it's a no-brainer for obvious reasons. MMVI may raise a few eyebrows but there was something that attracted me to MM's last 8-bit offering.

(NES) Super Mario Bros. 3
(SNES) Super Metroid
(SNES) Final Fantasy III (VI)
(SNES) Donkey Kong Country 2

(SNES) Mega Man X + (PSX) Mega Man X4
X4 was the last great X game in my opinion. X5 does have some important storyline events but it still feels like an inferior creation.

(PSX) Castlevania: Symphony of the Night
Nocturne is still great... the only problem I have is I can't listen to the OST on a blind whim - I really need to be in the right mood to listen to it.

(PSX) Wild Arms + Wild Arms 2
Media.vision hasn't even come close to topping the original and it's possibly superior successor. Simply great character development and some truly awesome villains.

(PSX) Metal Gear Solid
(PSX) Resident Evil 2 I could play this game till the end of time and not get bored.
(PSX) Tomb Raider Forget the sequels - give me the original.
(PSX) Mega Man Legends + Mega Man Legends 2 The series has so much "heart"
(PSX) Tony Hawk's Pro Skater 2 I really don't care about what the series does anymore... they perfected everything here.
(PSX) Brave Fencer Musashi Forget the sequel here as well

Since the original argument is that games reached their peak in the late 80's, early 90's, might I point out a game that was just released that I'd qualify as "masterpiece", although if you don't like the word, I can simply call it perfect and flawless. I'm talking about Ratchet & Clank Future on PS3. Now I'm by no mean a "Sony fan boy", nor was my first game Final Fantasy VII. I had never played a Ratchet game before and I'm not usually a big fan of 3D platformers, but everything about this game is great.

I think each system had its really strong games and that will continue as long as talented game creators are passionate about their work. Maybe some people have become so used to games that they've now become generally unimpressed by the new releases. After all, there are more and more games being released each year and the internet is filled with articles, pictures and videos of new and future releases, a big difference if you compare it to the NES days. How many games could compete against Super Mario Bros 3 way back when? Nintendo Power and other magazines were the only way at a first glance and let’s not forget we were younger then; kids and adults have different views and interests.

I mean, how many of you still play with their GI Joes?

Uh… that was a rhetorical question

I'll side with XLord007 here. I have played all those save Chrono Trigger.

In addition, I will recommend the following:

Super Mario 64

I don't think that simply setting out to create a masterpiece will always result in one.  It's just something that happens.  The best evidence of this is something like MGS2.  Supposedly it allowed Kojima to better realize his vision in ways that he claims he couldn't with the original game.  The result?  Something that wasn't as good.  The same goes for George Lucas and his Star Wars movies.

Anyways, a gaming masterpiece for me isn't something that is necessarily flawless in the technical sense (though it should be pretty close; great design is probably 90% of the battle, but that other 10% is the "something more" that is necessary for a game to qualify as a masterpiece, and not just a great game), but something that is wonderful in terms of the experience.  Something that stays with you.  Something that is more than the sum of its excellent parts.  I think it's a little different for each person, but there are usually certain games that endear themselves to more people than others, and I don't mean in a commercial or casual sense like GTA, but in a more timeless sense when looking at gaming past and present.

Anyways, there are a number of favorites that I like almost if not just as much, but these are the ones that I've always thought of as masterpieces:

Super Metroid - The best game ever?  Probably.
Super Mario Bros. 3 - The best platformer, 2D or otherwise.
Donkey Kong Country 2 - The only platformer that rivals SMB3.
Final Fantasy VI - The RPG by which I judge all others.
Chrono Trigger - Great time travel adventure.
Earthbound - Maybe the most imaginative RPG.
Super Mario RPG - Amazing mix of platforming and RPG elements.

Some close calls:

Streets of Rage 2 - The best beat 'em up.
Toejam & Earl - Endless replay value and lots of style.
Deus Ex - Maybe the best blend of gameplay and story there is.
Ogre Battle - My first SRPG and still the most iconic for me.
Castlevania III: Dracula's Curse - Fantastic level design and TOUGH game.
The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time - Alttp was a great game, but similar to what XLord said, this game drew me in like Zelda never had before.
Metal Gear Solid - A remarkable combination of gameplay and cinematics.
Resident Evil 2 - I'll never forget the zombies crashing through the window of the gunshop owner and chewing him up.  Awesome game.

Also, to feel that gaming may have peaked during a particular era doesn't mean denying the existence of great games in the here and now.  At least not to me.  It just means that for whatever reason you aren't as invested into it as you were at a particular time.  For me, gaming peaked in the 16-bit era.  Even arcades were going strong back then.  It was a great time for gaming all around.  However, I've enjoyed many games that have come after, and a lot of them would make it into my top thirty (which I'd been working on for the purposes of posting it on another forum).

My only reservation with calling newer games "masterpieces" or "classics" is their place in history hasn't really settled in yet. I remember I thought the same thing as above the day I bought Spyro the Dragon and thought it was some of the best 3D platforming gameplay and had amazing graphics and it was going to f---ing revolutionize gameplay for me and was Sony's answer for Mario 64, etc., etc...I think I stopped playing somewhere in the 3rd or 4th world and haven't picked it up in over six years. I can't name anything particularly wrong with it, I just never cared enough about it to complete it. I liked it so much, I even bought Year of the Dragon and got to the second world (or something) before I put it down and never picked it up again. I don't hate the series and I think it was impressive for the time, but it just never clicked.

I also said the same thing about PS1 Frogger. Outside of the retro level and maybe the gear level, what a POS that turned out to be. But it was a "masterpiece" back when I got my Playstation. I went through a FFT phase, where playing that game was all that mattered...40 hours later, halfway through the 4th chapter, I didn't want to see it again. But if you'd have asked me DURING the 40 hours, I'd have told you it was the greatest game EVAR! I even went through a (very) brief Metal Gear Solid OMFG! phase that didn't last past the first disc.

When I got Mario 3 and played it for months, I didn't think "masterpiece" or "classic". I just knew that was the game I wanted to play and I was going to keep playing until I finished it or felt done with it, or whatever (NES games had a short lifespan, remember...The biggest thing about Mario 3 in the day was its' size. 8 Worlds felt like Xenogears does today). Its' greatness just happened naturally...Later on, I realized I was having such a good time with it because of the great level designs and smooth play control and all the cool tricks for getting 1UPs. Whether people from the recent generations give it the chance I did is up to them, but there's many things that game can show modern game designers about control, level design, an inventory system...Compare the new mushrooms, inventory system and control in New Super Mario Brothers to the power-ups, inventory system and controls of Mario 3. I like New SMB a lot, but the gap of quality between it and Mario 3 is ridiculous.

Okay, here's an example of jumping the gun...Since XLord mentioned Goldeneye and it's a really popular game here...How about T.W.I.N.E., which was dubbed a "masterpiece" and labeled as supposedly "better" than Goldeneye when it came out according to just about every review I read? I haven't seen any mention of it on these boards and it's left off many "greatest games" lists.

For me, I just know there are games in the past I've played and will keep replaying and they've earned their spot as "classics", even if they aren't the first thing to come to mind (I've probably thought of about 10 important games to add to my list). It's very rare I buy a game nowadays and just know I'll be playing it or care about it 5 years from now, like I do my "true" classics. I know Guitar Hero will, I know Burnout 3 will, I know I'll be fighting myself not to replay Suikoden V...I don't really know about too many other ones. Probably Ace Combat, probably Dynasty Warriors, probably Sly Cooper...But they could easily end up like Spyro or FFT. That's why I get a bit cautious about labeling greatness, particularly on recent games (and particularly from gaming sites/magazines with extremely quick turnaround times).

Of those not mentioned, I'd say the first Soul Calibur, Samba de Amigo, Jet Set Radio Future, and DEFINITELY (Mike Tyson's) Punch Out!.  Someone else mentioned Super Mario Bros 3, which I do think is the pinnacle of that style of gaming, as well as Super Mario Bros 1.  As for series, Advance Wars and the Ace Combats from 4 onward work extremely well.  For true classics, going quite old school, Ms. Pac-Man ranks extremely high on my list.

Most of the games I'd qualify as masterpieces have already been listed here. CT, FF6, SMB, SMB3, Super Metroid and so on.

On the PC side of things, I'd add Half-Life 2 and Planescape: Torment.

I also feel that it should take some time before one decides how remarkable a game is/was relative to other classics and such.  I think one can decide that a game is good fairly quickly, but when someone plays a game and declares it their favorite game or an instant classic in a short amount of time, I find myself very skeptical.

"Being a jaded gamer seems to be all the rage these days...It's just that the old generation of gamers has grown whinier and bitchier."

I don't know if I mind it.  To be honest, I will respect any one's viewpoint if they can intelligently explain and defend it.  However, 90 per cent of whatever I read or hear concerning videogames in general (much less whether they're master... uhm... really, really good) is total rubbish (none of it on this forum, of course!)

Thanks for reminding me to be fair to the PC!

A couple of addendums:  The Civilization series of games are addictive as hell and work well.

And I'll add the classic GB Tetris, which was a great challenge (without that cheap forever-spin thing you can do now while it speeds up way too fast) and had great music.  Yay for Dancing Russians!

Chrono Trigger's a fun damn game to play, but plot wise? It's plot is more so based on a history than anything; all of the characters aside from Magus are damn boring.

Crono = No background, since he's representative of the player himself

Marle = Token blonde chick and tomboy

Lucca = Token brain

Kaeru / Frog = Token knight

Robo = Token robot

Ayla = Token cave girl

You could even argue that Magus is a token bad-ass/anti-hero/goth/royalty; he's still the most interesting story and personality aside the other characters easily, though.

The game mostly lived off setting; I was just anxious to explore each different time period, and to explore a new time period was always exciting, especially as in 12000BC; 65mil BC? Not so much.

The whole main villain being a token invading, destructive extraterrestrial was also rather typical.

Still, fun game, but when I really think about it, really cliche; only really unique part was 12000BC, and even the whole, utopian-floating-kingdom-in-the-sky thing has been done before, as cool as it is.

For me, it was like 12000BC was a secret time period I managed to stumble upon, or maybe a whole new world altogether; at first, it didn't seem to have anything to do with the plot, but the thing is, the ENTIRE plot came together in that time period.

I agree that they're not as good as FFVI's great cast, but I found them all likeable.  And Magus is still the best tragic villain I've seen out of Square (I don't care for Kuja), which is something that Sephiroth will never be able to lay claim to no matter how many times we hear OWA and see him walk through fire.

I'm not sure it was THAT typical.  At least not in terms of videogame or RPG stories.  The only games that I can recall using the same kind of villain are FFVII and Xenogears (which also has a floating utopia, or rather, two of them!), both of which came afterwards.

Anyways, what makes Chrono Trigger special is the way that it's able to mix and present all these elements.  It has a consistent polish that no other RPG has been able to recreate.  Since it's such a great all-around game, it doesn't have to have an overly complicated story or deep cast to make up for deficiencies in other areas.  Instead it effortlessly blends all elements into one amazing experience while avoiding the pitfalls of anime-inspired RPG stories.  The music is spot on, the dungeons are varied and memorable, and the time travel element allows the story progression to capitalize on both linear and non-linear gameplay elements.

I personally wasn't too big on Chrono Trigger the first time I played it - it took a play through of Chrono Cross years later for me to come to appreciate Chrono Trigger for the great game that it was.

Yup. The characters are mostly archetypes and the plot doesn't always pull through (especially near the end) but the game is constructed so brilliantly that those are merely gripes. At times, I wish it lasted longer but than I'm not as sure. There's very little filler in the game. It's one plot point to the next, without much mindless level grinding or long dungeons that pad the story. It helps that back when it was released, the story felt refreshingly different. I actually enjoyed exploring all the different eras and seeing how time changed the landscapes.

Chrono Trigger has a lot of cliche elements to it...It just does more to endear itself than most RPG's that use the same things. It's not too long (12-14 hours to complete the "main game", add 5 more for end-game side-quests), has the best battle system ever (nothing has mixed up real-time and menu-based battles as well), has enormous replay value (and I admit I haven't gotten all the New Game+ endings) and it came out at a time when a lot of the elements (including Toriyama's designs, which I readily admit get on my nerves nowadays) were fresh, with time travel still pretty taboo among RPG's. Like Mario 3, CT is a game a lot of "modern" RPG's can learn much from.

If you're looking for barrels of "deep", philosophical nonsense (which has largely been relegated to "clock filler" to me), you probably won't like it. It's a fun, almost-innocent romp that's fun to explore and blows up into something much bigger. And that moment in the future when they find the Lavos video...That's a pretty powerful statement, about 3 hours into the game, seeing exactly how the world comes to an end. Compared to Chrono Cross, where 10-15 hours in, I'm still wandering around wondering what the point of the game is.

Same boat. Played it once, never went back. Played Cross, and devoured Trigger again.

Oh come on!
A Thief, a Ninja, a person of Royalty, a Muscle-head, a Knight, an Old Sorcerer, a cute little girl, as if FFVI was NOT filled with cliche characters!

It's what you DO with them that matters, and both CT and FFVI manage to do great things with their stereotypes.

Which is why it might be better to simply refer to them as conventions, seeing as how "cliche" carries a negative connotation.  Besides, even the most highly regarded RPG stories have numerous cliches.  That's why the storytelling is just as important as the content of a plot.  A game should be engaging to play.  Not just interesting to reflect upon.  Therefore I don't look at Chrono Trigger as being inferior to certain popular RPGs just because the story may not be as complex or mature.  If anything, it's clearly superior in terms of game design, and as a gamer, that matters to me more than whether or not the story would make a good movie or novel.

Yeah, but FFVI pretty much established the personality archetypes that would then be reused over and over in later RPGs.  You could say that FFIV did it, but it was more of a rough sketch at that point.  FFVI gave its characters more depth/humanity and since then I don't think characters in *console* RPGs have changed much.  Just that cliches may now be more personality-based than job/position-based.  The latter was a pre-existing cliche that FFVI used but the former is something that FFVI pretty much set the precedent for.

Absolutely.  Though it does make me wonder which RPGs you might consider to be less stereotypical than those two.  Even a series like Suikoden is rife with cliches.  Sometimes I think that the only difference between RPGs in that regard is whether one takes itself more seriously or less seriously.

Well it's funny that you should mention Suikoden, since that series is based on a centuries-old Chinese Novel, filled with thieves, killers and burly characters.
To say FFVI created these archetypes is like saying video games invented story-telling in the first place.

The simple fact of the matter is that practically every single RPG ever consists of a cast that was inspired by books, scripture, mythology and novels that go back for millennia.

I know.  I meant within the realm of RPGs, and specifically console or JRPGs.  FFVI is the first JRPG I can think of to have such a well developed cast of characters.  It established what we would expect from every one of those archetypes in future RPGs.