(didn't know where to put this topic)

(and the hardware is DS, but I'm planning to record GBA games)

Basically, it's like this. Thanks to Angela, I have half a clue on how to record audio from my DS. In fact, I've already recorded one song, proving the viability of my methods:

http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/9/1/1 … ave3-0.mp3

(this is a song from the first Shaman King: Master of Spirits title. Most of the music isn't quite as elegant as this, but I rather enjoy the soundtrack of both games)

However, in the actual process of recording and converting to mp3, I realized that there's several serious gaps in my knowledge, and I'd like to address them before I go about making serious attempts at recording music from games. I made a topic about this on, ahem, another forum, but it doesn't seem to have attracted any replies..

Anyway, without further ado, my questions...as clearly as I can think to present them:

1. During recording the audio, I bumped the recording quality up to the highest it could go - 48khz and so on. When I converted to mp3, though, I realized something was amiss. Specifically, pretty much all my other mp3s are 44khz. I understand now that 48khz isn't standard and shouldn't be what I record at, but is there any specific reason for 44 instead of 48?

2. To encode to mp3, I used Lame MP3 Writer Plug-in (out_lame.dll) for Winamp (ver 1.64, pointed at the latest lame_enc.dll). While that's not exactly ideal for real professionalism, is it suitable for general encoding? Or do I need to use a program that uses/directly use the lame.exe executable for best effect?

3. Is there any way to accurately discern when audio is being recorded or encoded in a quality it, uh, doesn't deserve? I mean, GBA and DS audio isn't exactly CD quality, but I have no idea how to judge what is overkill, especially since I might as well be deaf when it comes to discerning audio problems in music (I revere, fear and loathe audiophiles with equal measure). To make this specific mp3, I encoded it in (at? with?) VBR, set to minimum of 128 and a maximum of 320, but that might be excessive. I also set it to a "VBR quality" of 2, although I'm to understand there's also appeal in encoding a "0", which is the highest?

I really, really don't know what I'm doing, and any advice would be very much welcome, thanks.

44.1 kHz is what's used for CD quality audio (which is what Sony insisted on according to wikipedia), 48 kHz is used on DVD's (because it can).

If I have wav files, I usually just use RazorLame as a fast interface for converting lists of wav's into MP3's, it uses the lame encoder.

for just GBA/DS quality audio 320 kbps is probably overkill, but I don't see many mp3's floating around these days that are less.  192 is probably fine.  With storage being so easily available it doesn't really matter anyways, might as well make it as best as you want it, no?

Pretty much what James says.  I would stick with recording at 44.1 mhz, since putting your waves/mp3s at 48 can cause compatibility issues when you're trying to burn them to audio CDs.  When it comes to GBA/DS sound, 16 bit should be perfectly fine anyway.

That said, I'd go with the highest encoding option available if space isn't an issue.  Regardless of your sound data's origin, you're still dealing with compression when it comes to encoding; it might not be discernable, but data IS being lost in the process.  Lame MP3 Writer Plug-in should be okay for general mp3 encoding; I myself use CDEX for mp3s, at 320kbps if I can help it.  I use the FLAC Winamp plug-in for lossless rips.

You've just reminded me that I have to start gearing up for a Rhythm Tengoku Gold recording session.  Can't wait! ^_^

1) Nero and some others can burn directly from 48khz (or 32 or whatever)
2) There's no reason at ALL to use 320 instead of eVBR/V0. Space saved with no quality lost.
3) If you care that much anyway, best to just go with .flac or other lossless. It shouldn't take up much more space than 320 for synth music like that anyway. Remember, if you go to .mp3 you can never get what's lost.

-Joshua

I agree.  But I'll still use mp3s (and non-VBR encodes) for player compatibility purposes - or file sharing, since not everyone is willing to use FLAC.

Are there any portable music players out there that will play lossless files like .ape and .flac?  That's usually why I never make files in lossless format, a) because I don't care, 320 kbps is fine by me and b).flac files are still pretty huge files.

Any player that's capable of being Rockboxed can play lossless formats.  I have a Cowon iAudio X5L w/ Rockbox and it's suh-weeet.  Rockbox even plays NSFs and SPCs, etc.  Highly recommended!

-Mike

A couple things worth noting: MP3 by design caps frequencies at rate 32kHz, and frequency above 16kHz is lost no matter how high you set the bitrate. If you want to include higher frequencies use a more modern lossy format like Ogg Vorbis, AAC etc., or go lossless right away. The DS' highest possible frequency is only little higher than that at ~33kHz for sequenced music though. Streamed or processed music may be significantly below that rate to conserve space respective processing power (for those using an emulator may be the cleaner way as it takes out the additional rather bad s/n ratio of the DS/GBA's DA converter as well as the AD converter of your recorder/soundcard). With the GBA the latter DS suggestion applies in general as the GBA has no hardware sequencing capability, so unless the GB/GBC backward compatible PSG is used it's always processed in software or (seldomly) streamed, always at 8bit. Here the highest possible rate is some 16 odd kHz afaik, meaning frequencies are capped at ~8kHz. Since sound processing is the predominant music mixing method but plenty GBA games want to use more of processing power for the game itself instead "only" music the mixing rate often is ~8 or even ~4kHz (frequency cap being at ~4 respective ~2kHz each).

Hope I didn't depress you with this.

Or the iAudio 7 which actually plays it natively (and sounds much better than an iPod in general, to boot)

-Joshua

Not only that, you gave me a headache

I have to admit, I keep reading your post and thinking I understand it, then rereading it and understanding I really have no clue. Doesn't help that I don't understand khz/frequences at all (somehow managed to miss all the science behind sound in my education). I'll try and break my questions down without sounding too stupid:

1. What exactly is going on when you say "caps frequencies at rate 32kHz, and frequency above 16kHz is lost" and "highest possible rate is some 16 odd kHz afaik, meaning frequencies are capped at ~8kHz"? Why does having a max of XkhZ mean you only get 1/2 XkHz? I really have no idea why that is - to an idiot like me, it sounds the same as saying "this barrel has a capacity of four gallons, so it holds two gallons".

2. The general gist of what you're saying, though, is that there's no real point in use a lossless or even alternative lossy format when recording DS and GBA audio, except possibly with some DS audio that is sequenced?

Also...

I, uh, have no idea what this means. Are you saying that I'd get more noise when recording from the handheld to my soundcard than from an emulator? (I can understand that, but I have to admit I instinctively balk at emulator recordings, even if I've done a few in the past)

Is there still notable incompatability with VBR out there? The rips I'm going to make are primarily for the intention of spreading them so that more people are exposed to and can potentially enjoy the music. That's honestly why I'm asking these questions in the first place - I'm otherwise quality-deaf enough that anything would do for a personal rip.

Er, even with v0, there's still the setting of min/max, right? Or am I missing something?

Thanks for the help so far, guys!

Well that's just it -- the whole point of VBR is to only use the space it actually needs to -- so with a 320 max, you're getting virtually the same sound quality (I guess it's possible that someone with great ears and a sophisticated system could tell the difference, but at that point they'd probably want lossless anyway).

Also, http://flac.sourceforge.net/links.html#hardware for stuff that can use flac

-Joshua

Yea, I guess I should have clarified that first or omitted it altogether. To play back a frequency at, let's say 4kHz, you need at least double the sample rate, which is 8kHz here. CD standard is 44.1kHz, so the highest possible frequency it can play back is 22.05kHz. The human ear is said to hear nothing above 16kHz, that's why older digital formats like MP3, DAT etc. stopped at a sample rate of 32kHz.

That's what I am saying, yes. Everyone else is still doing "game rips" recordings nevertheless though.

Yes, that's what I'm saying. Digitally recording music mixed in software right in an emulator won't have the signal/noise issue at all. Streamed music should be kept in the original stream format for the highest possible quality.

Ipods seem to support VBR MP3 rather consistently bad. I got a first gen nano as well as a second gen shuffle, the former gets all times wrong for LAME VBR MP3, usually cutting them significantly short, and the latter does fine except for a couple tracks which seem to crash the player... I personally re-convert music for each portable player based on their use, so I'm just avoiding creating VBR MP3s for ipods now.