We're all here because we love the music, isn't that good enough? Even though I may feel annoyed/angry, if only for a minute, when I find a download of a recent album I just dropped $30-40 on, it was MY choice to buy it. Just as it is anyone else's choice to download a rip or buy it themselves. It's none of my concern. In addition the whole sampling/downloading/ripping as a sub-culture has led me to find many interesting artists/games/albums and meet many other like-minded fans that I would not have otherwise. If anything, I'm grateful for that.

A few things I was (somewhat) surprised by:
No one has brought up the "game music is on the game disc I bought, why do I have to double-dip just for the music?" argument.
There's just as many overseas sites doing the same thing as gamemp3s and Galbadia, yet I only hear their condemnation.

God, do I love this thread everytime it arises once or twice a year...

Cliffs notes version of my take:

-30 or 60 second samples are not sufficient to properly judge most VGM albums. Maybe to get a feel for one, but not to make a smart buying decision (unless you have some degree of faith).

-Yes, there are leeches, but I believe there are enough people who buy legitimately. What's better: No one getting the albums because they can't hear enough of it to decide if they want to drop $30 on it or feeding the leeches, but having some people buy them.

-Conversely, VGM CD's are expensive. It's rare for me to feel strongly enough about a CD enough much anymore to justify the pricetags. This is due to the fact that I've broadened my horizons outside of VGM (good thing), the fact I don't play too many games anymore, especially RPG's, lessening the odds of nostalgic effects winning me over (good thing, bad thing...depends I guess) and the fact that my opinion of so many composers in the current scene is either painfully low, totally indifferent or has dropped considerably over the years (really bad). It's really cool when all the pieces come together and those $30 pricetags aren't an issue or a hinderance...it's just insanely rare.

-Most of my sale from the past year has been stuff I wanted to own or stuff I would add to an order to "try out", but closer listening made it a quick and painless decision to sell (I keep the mp3's, but I honestly haven't even looked at any for the ones I sold..They're probably gone next time I clean up my HD). I'd say there's one album I miss that I sold (Tecmo Game Music) and that was for the Soloman's Key track, the novelty of it being such an early VGM album and my weakness for 8 bit VGM. Even I'm a little surprised to see King of Fighters 99 Arrange, Super Mario World, FFX, Felghana and Wild Arms Rocking Heart go, but I really didn't enjoy the music that much anymore and I figured I could use the money from them for other stuff.

-Personally, I modify every mp3 file I have with mp3gain down to 90db now. With that and the fact that I rip at 320 kbps or only use high-quality rips nowadays, I'm starting to question the use of regular CD's more and more. Guilty Gear XX OST is a lot better when you lower the decibel level by about -9...It's ridiculously loud. I'm not even sure how I tolerated the original discs all those years. My CD systems don't have the ability to limit the db level the way I can with mp3gain.

-Daniel K's definition of a game music fan is pretty spot on. I probably have more emulated file rips than I do original soundtrack albums on my iPod (although that's as much of an acknowledgment that I prefer old-school VGM compared to the ones churned out nowadays than anything, heh). I definitely think the industry is doing much to hurt itself, with or without pirates from the loudness wars to pricing issues to format issues (that's for all CD's, VGM included).

-My cliffs notes versions of my posts are probably longer than if I would have typed it out normally.

This topic does tend to crop up from time to time doesn't it.  Just a few points I think should be reinforced or mentioned:

-You can argue that game music will be around in some form regardless of album sales but if nobody is buying albums (either on physical media or online) then you can kiss arranged albums goodbye.

-If site administrators were really intent on providing downloads of new game music albums for "sampling purposes", they would post them at limited bit rates so that if people do enjoy the album and want to enjoy it fully they will make the purchase.  Seems like a reasonable compromise to me but we're well past that point now.

-Record labels should have been doing the above years ago, along with offering high quality, non-DRM paid downloads for people who appreciate music and are willing to pay for it, albeit preferably not on a medium that is becoming increasingly antiquated.

Not taking an official position either way here, just saying there is enough BS to go around on both sides   I figure the record labels will come around eventually, or else the rest of the music industry will manage to bypass them altogether, but who knows what the public perception of the worth of music will have become by that point.

Two things:

1. Doujin/fanbased works don't apply to this.

2. Arranged albums have been on the general decline anyway since the mid-90's, as far as numbers go and I don't think they can really sink much lower. No big loss if we don't get another quick, slapped-together cash-in on Gradius or Rockman (or a Sakuraba one that sounds pretty much like the OST versions!) . Even then, groups that are dedicated to them probably won't stop: Falcom, Inticreates, SE (although the new dance album would probably fall in the quick cash-in territory). I think Konami has pretty much thrown in the towel already, as has Capcom and Nintendo.

So, I hit home, did I?

My idea wasn't to offend, but to make a point in this issue, you almost have to. As for condescending, there's really enough of that in this thread to go around. I'm tired of the general idea in the VGM community that original CDs are somehow imbued with some sort of holiness, and that if you don't have any, you're on the outside. I'm also tired of the same old hollow and unsubstantial arguments being used to uphold that status quo.

I think the post was bound to offend with comments like 'so retarded in the elite VGM community', 'sprouting a lot of nonsensical garbage', and 'pound one's chest like a gorilla' in the first paragraph alone. Regardless of to what extent I agree with you, such forceful and insulting language shouldn't be used in any civilised debate. I don't think frustration is an excuse. I sigh every time that I hear a flawed and patronising anti-evolutionary argument, but I don't resort to making an insulting rant for an hour. I enjoyed much of the passion and opinions of the post, but not the attitude.

The reason most people get so annoyed with leechers is that they're getting what they paid hard earned money for free. They regard being able to listen to a game soundtrack on a well-presented CD as a privilege especially when there are rips and emulations as alternatives. I don't personally judge people that download exclusively too harshly, but I do get annoyed by the ungrateful ones and the really stupid ones that I see all over FFS and GFF.

As for arranged albums, most have already given up because of the commerce issue. Game soundtracks rarely sell more than 1000 copies and arranged albums often only sell a fifth of that of their soundtracks. With the exception of concert recordings, orchestral arranged albums are pretty much dead. Those that want an FFIX or FFXII orchestral version won't get what they want unless they manage to find a producer sufficiently clueless not to realise they'd be commercial failures. So we're left with the Sato / Sakuraba productions, the occasional piano or small ensemble, doujin albums mostly made by untalented musicians (the West tends to be better than the East in my opinion), some rock band albums (The Black Mages is one of the few things that sells), and a few others.

Couldn't agree more, why do you think I totally ignored that opus on the first page of this thread?

No, not really. You can share an informed or passionate opinion without being insulting to people that don't agree with you.

Like Chris said...

I believe there's been something of a crackdown in Japan...the number of overall releases has slowed. In any event, the doujin scene is significant because you have people that are doing it for the fun of it and not necessarily trying to bust 1000 copies sold. It has more of a grassroots theme to it overall, as opposed to trying to churn a profit (I seriously doubt the interest of the arrangers in any of the "Premium" arranges) I tend to find I'm more tolerant of "untalented musicians" than I am with the output of a lot of the "professionals", especially when one considers the pricetag and often times, the overall output.

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Their passion is admirable and there are plenty of fantastic doujin albums out there. While I'm hardly an expert about the Japan doujin scene, I find many of the albums fall into the generic rock / metal category with all melody and nothing much else. I'm more passionate about the more creative efforts by the people at OCR, OUS, RRR, etc., but feel free to point me in the right direction to some decent Japanese doujin arranges. SSH is pretty good and I enjoyed the recent semi-doujin Psyvariar The Mix album but nothing too much else jumps to mind.

I'd actually probably argue that the Japanese doujin scene has grown in the last three years, but that's only because there have been over 300 Touhou albums at last count. It'd  be nice to see something other than Touhou, Final Fantasy, and Mega Man getting lots of attention.

That's kind of my point...Japan is cracking down on the use of "higher profile" properties in the doujin scene. Meanwhile, even hardcore fans often poke fun at the amount of Touhou and visual novel arranges we see (Megaman saw a brief spurt of action awhile back, but not much else has come out). So while the overall output might be increasing, the variety of sources has definitely gone down over the years. So that's why I think the scene has shrunk more than anything.

Indeed.  Personally, I enjoy seeing some folks get a taste of their own medicine.  I think we're all elitist to some degree.  It comes with the territory.  Loud and nasty is the only way that it sticks sometimes.  Otherwise you get ignored by people like Chris, who is one of the most arrogant guys around, and yet he's whining about your approach.  What a farce.

Anyway, I'm one of those who likes to own a physical copy of my favorites.  I appreciate the effort that goes into the presentation of the product and everything.  I don't sit in judgment over those who prefer to own digital copies of course, as I myself do that with other stuff that both can and can't (either because there are only gamerips or because the physical albums are exceedingly rare/expensive) be bought officially.  Also, for all the 'leeching' that goes on, I have to wonder how many of those people truly have zero respect for the music.  It seems to me that to even be willing to listen to game music outside of the game you have to be a fan of VGM in general.  You don't just stumble across free samples and decide to leech them.  Not when it comes to game music, which appeals to a very small audience in the first place.  Therefore I'm not sure there are people running around who just download every soundtrack and think little of the music.  I believe that most VGM fans enjoy the music so much that they do own some physical albums.  Those that don't probably don't primarily for cost reasons.  Not because they love VGM any less.

For the most part, I manage to express an opinion firmly without resorting to insulting people. I didn't personally feel particularly insulted by Daniel's post but I felt, from an objective point of view, that's not the way to go about a debate. I'm aware that I've made arrogant, outspoken, or smartassy posts around here before mainly because I thought it was full of arrogant arseholes as well. These days I think much more of the people here -- in fact it's one of the two game music communities I actually enjoy -- so hopefully I'll become more stomachable as well! I'm lovely really, just misunderstood.

Bah, you didn't think enough of the people around here to answer a question that I posed to you in a past thread...TWICE!  Of course, you respond now when I mention you specifically, which kind of proves my point.

You blew me off in this thread, by the way.  You even responded to someone else in the same thread afterwards (if you hadn't, I would've given you the benefit of the doubt, what with how people just don't recheck a thread sometimes), leaving me scratching my head and wondering why you couldn't be bothered to answer my simple question of clarification.  The only reason I could think of is that my question didn't give you an opportunity to showcase your knowledge.

Daniel K, on the other hand, answered my question about his Silent Hill preferences quite nicely.  Which approach was more civilized?

Anyway, I suppose the problem with being objective is that you have to assume the people you're debating with put objective reasoning first and foremost in how they assess an argument.  Sometimes everyone is so convinced that their own logic is correct that arguing to the contrary is tantamount to throwing sand at a wall.  Maybe you'll be able to get them to consider your views, but in all likelihood, it's going to take a LONG time.  The alternative is to take a risk and ruffle a few feathers.

Megavolt is on the right track when he writes "Loud and nasty is the only way that it sticks sometimes". I know that on a forum where people like to post their monthly purchases, people simply blink their eyes and look the other way if you bring this issue up. I wanted to make an impact, so why not go all-out and at least make it as salient as possible? I disagree with your notion of a "civilised debate", Chris. Sometimes, you just have to jolt people out of their complacency. I knew that if I went about it placidly and timidly, it'd just be brushed aside and swept under the rug - why not make it stick? I re-read my original post, and aside from a few awkward expressions, I regret nothing - its exactly what I wanted to say.

I've always been irritated by the deafening and uncritical consensus in the elite VGM community on this issue. Every time it comes up, its the same people babbling the same nonsense and the same tired and flawed arguments being used, ad nauseam. I just wanted it to be known that not every VGM fan supports that view, that there is dissent. I'm glad to see that there are others who see it the same way.

McCall: I totally agree with you when you say "To me, it is not a product to be bought and sold, it is a form of expression. It's a cornerstone of my life, not a mere diversion. It's an important cultural and human need." That is one of the reasons why I don't feel like pumping money into the machinery of the record industry, be it VGM or otherwise. Sure, there are a lot of idiot leeches who hoard music on their hard-drives that they never listen to and who never respect the music or the artist. But there's just as much crap on the other side of the spectrum, at the record companies. Most of the commercial record industry is just one giant whoring-out of the "important cultural and human need" we call music. And sure, some of the leeches are annoying as all hell (we'll never be rid of idiots), but they're just harmless flies who probably wouldn't spend much money on music anyway. There's this big fear that no more music would ever be made if the record companies go down and physical CDs are no longer produced (since, as we have seen in this thread, a lot of people seem to equate "music" with the CD-medium). This is complete hogwash. Sincere music is made by passionate and artistic individuals, and they're gonna keep on making it, corporate machine or no corporate machine, physical CDs or no physical CDs. I've made music myself, and I have several friends who make music themselves, if you really want to do it, you can. The greatest musical revolutions have sprung out of the independent, DIY-traditions, not the multi-billion dollar industry. Real musicians and great music will be with us as long as human beings draw breath on this planet. The only "artists" that are sure to go out of business and go extinct for ever are the likes of Britney Spears, N'Sync, etc., in other words the "artists" that are 100% planned, made, molded, paid for, owned, and endorsed by record companies, their little, subservient creatures. You know what I have to say about that? Good riddance! If we're talking about VGM, its even more unthinkable that the music would die when the CD-medium bites the dust, since games will always be around, and a good game needs some good music, y'know?

This whole line of reasoning invariably leads one to one question, the big elephant in the middle of the room that no one seems to want to notice. Music downloading is not going away, it is here to stay. Whatever we think about CDs and people's right or not to pirate music, we are facing an accomplished fact. More and more people are downloading, less and less people are buying physical CDs. I'm not making this point to gloat or kill the discussion: I'm making it because its true. Whatever you and I think and feel about it, people are gonna keep on downloading illegally, but do you really think a majority of people are gonna keep supporting an outmoded, expensive, and (to many of us) cumbersome alternative? Those who are truly concerned about giving the artists their financial due must start to look for easy, accessible ways of getting the money to the artists. It sure as hell isn't going to be easy, and there's no guarantee whatsoever that a majority of people will ever support it, but its really the only way, because people are growing more and more intolerant of paying ridiculous prices for CDs, and in the long run, record companies (and subsequently the physical CD-medium that they're keeping on life-support) are not helping, they're hindering this evolution. Personally, I don't think its a question of "if" the industry crashes, its a question of "when". And when that time comes, the less progress that has been made towards a fairer and easier way to distribute (and pay for, if that is your cup of tea) music digitally, the more painful and damaging it will be to the artists and their hard work.

Yet, as we've seen by a lot of replies in this thread, most people who swear up and down that their top priority is to support the artists just play ostriches and hide their heads in the sand, pretending that everything will always be as it has been. After all, who wants to discuss this when there are real and more pressing issues at hand, like making the important distinction between "real fans" and "parasites".

The amount of arrogance and elitism in this thread astounds me.

I agree with almost everything the_miker said.  Add to the fact that anyone who knows me knows I'm as deeply rooted in the history of gamemp3s as mike, adam and others.  There are hundreds of justifications I could give you for doing what I (we) do, some of them being...  I buy vgm, on a very regular basis.  I currently sit at roughly 240 vgm albums, 100 anime albums and 150 Joe Hisaishi cds.  I've been to a handful of anime conventions.  I've gone to 3 Dear Friends concerts (the very first one in LA and 2 in Chicago).  I've been to various anime movie premiers in NYC.  If it wasn't for this -- gamemp3s, altpop and the vgm community in general -- I wouldn't be sitting here writing that.  Granted, I may be the minority in terms of turnaround, but the fact of the matter is, like any other community, it offers a social community centered around something people enjoy -- videogames, their music and the people that enjoy them both.

In fact, I would venture to say that half of the people who are posting here today in one way or another were influenced or started at communities like gamemp3s, gamingforce, etc.  Myself, Mike, Adam, Carl to name a few.

Daniel K, I actually agree with you on a number of points you've made, but I've also heard a lot of scapegoating of corporations, too.

The intellectual/nerd hatred of corporations annoys me...sounds like too many people played Final Fantasy VII, and are using Shin-Ra, a fictional conception of a corporation, as a representative of all real corporations.

What is the problem that the intellectual community has with business? Things cost money, and people need to make a living. And all you want to bitch about is how these companies are taking advantage of people? They're giving you something you want! Who the hell has the resources to distribute this stuff either physically or digitally? It takes money and other resources to distribute this stuff, no matter who does it! And who has those kinds of resources? Corporations and business only stay in business when they contribute value to society; they deliver service!

The whole "Raging against the Machine/System" is nothing more than a fashionable philosophy, and only those who have a lack of depth of any real intelligence or practicability will think you're cool because of it.

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You know, it's funny you mention this...I can think of two examples in the past couple years that made me lighten my stance on the whole piracy thing:

1. Copy-protectected "CDs", which were needless bullshit that did nothing but punish people who used the CD's legitimately. They did this when I felt really strongly against downloading and it really pissed me off (especially since about 3 of the albums I REALLY wanted were pressed on these things).

2. When the whole forum was up in arms about that custom specialist guy and for about 6 months (longer?), he sold bootleg lot after bootleg lot. Sorry...At first, it was really annoying, then it started dawning on me how little the labels really cared. From what I understand, people like Alex (at Otaku.com) helped make them aware of this and most of the companies that the CD's belonged to had US branches. But what happened? Nothing...At least not from the guys putting the stuff out (and if they did step in, it was after the damage was done).

This wasn't an IRC channel or vgmcentral...This was ebay, which is right in plain sight for everyone! To put that in perspective, in 2001 (with the Dreamcast already gone and on the way out) Sega ordered ebay to pull auctions for ALL import software because of their supposed links to modchips and pirated software. They definitely complied, because they yanked my auctions for a couple import games.

Even the Hong Kong pirates...Why the hell are VGM fans the ones fighting the battles for the people that make the things? We do our part (by making people aware of what is out there), but the more I think about it, more of a crackdown from higher-up should have snuffed a lot of this out a long time ago.

I've said pretty much everything I wanted to say on this subject, and I'm not going to bring it up again (unless someone specifically asks my opinion). I just wanted to answer Bernhardt's response to my post.

I don't have a problem with business, nor am I trying to sound "cool" by dissing companies (and to suggest that my expressed opinions in this thread are influenced by Final Fantasy 7... that's just too damn ridiculous to even deserve an answer). But unless you missed it, one of the red threads in my argumentation is that selling CDs will sooner or later not be profitable, since it seems less and less people are buying. Business stays alive by profit, but what happens when the profit disappears?

Also, yes, it does take some effort to publish music digitally. But since its much easier and (above all) cheaper than pressing and distributing CDs, which form do you think will prove fittest in the evolutionary race?

Also, one last point: your first post seems to suggest that you have zero experience with downloading torrents. Its very easy, you just need any of the free torrent programs like uTorrent, and you're set. You shouldn't knock it until you've tried it.

Have you guys justified piracy yet?

Have you? Seeing as you have ripped and provided for public download quite a few soundtracks consisting of copyrighted material for snesmusic.org, you'd have to.

Or, you can just read Smeg's post on the second page of this thread again.

*rolls eyes*

Oh lord, lets just dig up every skeleton from everyone's past... I'll start: this one time at band camp...

But seriously, WHO here hasn't committed copyright infringement at one point or another? No one is innocent so why bother wasting time figuring out who is the most guilty?

The point of my post was precisely to point that out. Dais' question "Have you guys justified piracy yet?" is redundant, since he's obviously justified it himself already by being a pirate. There's a lot of hypocrisy behind people's condemnation of piracy, people should learn to just drop it.

Yes that is very comparable to distributing commercial soundtracks.*

The surest sign of a complete lack of faith in your own principles (or complete absence of) is a rush to attack anyone who appears to be criticizing you.

*here, I'll make it easy for you: EGG Music

Say what you want, its still breaking copyright law. Legally, you are not allowed to do that. The only difference is that in one case you've decided that its OK, in another case that its not.

Oh, I have complete faith in my principles, I assure you. I'm a proud pirate and will continue to be. As for attacking people, didn't you just call someone "an asshole" in this very thread? What does that say about your "principles"? Probably that they're a mishmash of herd-morality clichés.

It would probably make too much sense for everyone to chill the f--- out.

im going to start ignoring threads that turn into something resembling a PETA / NUGENT bitchslap.

Post Deleted.

No one wanted to read it T_T

This discussion is pretty much dead now, anyway.

Agreed! *leaves thread*

And enjoy some good vgm, downloaded or bought.

Also, fun thing about that word censorship, the censored word isn't censored when I'm posting this post and looking up that quote.

Soo, any good vgm lately popped up into your zune,ipod,foobar,winamp or stereo system?

How convenient an excuse, huh?

Well, there is nothing else to say, and you haven't presented any arguments at all, so, yes, its very convenient.

What's the point in arguing with people who will never be convinced otherwise?