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avatar! Feb 25, 2009

I know political discussions can get... "hot" smile
But hey, it's cold around here, and in general STC people are open-minded, albeit opinionated! So, I was just reading the story below:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090225/ap_ … s_shooting

in which 2 "men" (I use that term lightly) opened fire on random spectators, and hurt 7 people including a 20 month old baby. I was thinking, do these people really deserve to live? Since they didn't kill anyone (entirely by luck), they are most likely not eligible for the death penalty. However, they clearly tried to kill people! What if they had say killed the 20 month old baby, and maybe some others, should they then be executed? In a case such as this, doesn't it make more sense to execute them so they don't get a second chance?? Anyway, these are some thoughts crossing through my mind, and I thought it would be fun to get some philosophical/political/sociological arguments going!

cheers,

-avatar!

Jay Feb 25, 2009

Where you create situations in which killing is justified, and you exercise the power to take another's life or give that power to someone else, killing can always be justified. Nobody ever plays the bad guy.

Seems better to me all round to state that deciding who lives and who dies is not one of our rights.

Jodo Kast Feb 25, 2009

They need to go to prison for a few years, meet some hardened criminals and get some iatrogenic effects. I find it interesting that when people screw up, we take care of them. Note that we literally means you and I, since we pay for it. And we pay to make them better criminals. The death penalty would certainly be more efficient than taking a chance that they might commit another crime. As usual, I have designed an entirely new system for dealing with criminals. I don't have a choice in the matter, because our current system does not work. The people in charge of the U.S. are clearly not very intelligent because they use systems that have been proven to not work. For example, if you're trying to go out with a girl and your strategy fails, then you change your strategy. You don't keep trying the same thing. When we put people in prisons, we are "trying the same thing". Take note that the death penalty falls under "trying the same thing". Neither prisons nor death penalties are deterrents, therefore the strategy needs to be changed. (However, I once heard a joke about the death penalty. A man was about to be hanged for having committed a murder and he told the sheriff that the death penalty is not a deterrent. The sheriff told him, "I'll believe that the next time I see you.")

Cedille Feb 25, 2009 (edited Feb 25, 2009)

The biggest difference between death penalty and murder is the former is for a good cause, the latter often not (and with a valid reason, the murderers deserve clemency and can avoid a death sentence). As such, killing one person for killing another is pretty fine to me.

That being said, as far as this incident is concerned, keeping them in prison for good will suffice.

Smeg Feb 25, 2009

Jay explained pretty well why capital punishment is unacceptable. That is not a power any government should have over its citizens. Perhaps it's easier for folks to accept it if they believe in the existence of an eternal/immortal soul? Then you can be reassured that you're not erasing a person forever, you're just sending them off to a different plane of existence. Or something.

That aside, I also can't agree with your assertion that the life of the 20 year old baby is somehow worth more than that of any other potential victims. It would of course be tragic if the child were to die, but for society (and that's what crime and punishment laws exist to protect, right?), it'd only be lost potential. The adults are presumably already contributing to society and would be a larger loss.

longhairmike Feb 25, 2009 (edited Feb 25, 2009)

duplicate

longhairmike Feb 25, 2009

Cedille wrote:

keeping them in prison for good will suffice.

got a calculator handy?? we probably spend more taxpayer money annually to keep prisoners incarcerated than their annual earning potential if they were out.

Jodo Kast wrote:

They need to go to prison for a few years...

or until the state budget crisis forces a mass release.

Singapore law handles things quite nicely...

Datschge Feb 25, 2009

Killing happens all the time, and unfortunately I don't see the time when soldiers and secret agencies and the likes are officially punishable and punished for anytime soon. Or ever.

I guess one could make the point that death penalty is a necessity on the scale of possible punishments for every potential crime. That would require a fully working, non-corrupted, non-biased law system capable of knowing and balancing all factors. Again something I don't think ever existed and ever will. And death penalty, like torture, is the kind of punishment one can't make up for. Bad for you karma, going to heaven, going to paradise or whatever one believes in (not that all those things really helped making earth itself a better place anyway).

Daniel K Feb 25, 2009 (edited Feb 25, 2009)

I usually stay out of this debate, since the different sides are mostly irreconcilable due to the fact that the standpoints are ultimately grounded in emotion. Personally, I agree with Jay and Smeg. From any other viewpoint than that of a lust for revenge, the death penalty is unacceptable. Now, maybe some people on the anti-death penalty side do belittle the "lust for revenge"-aspect: if someone killed my children, for example, I might very well view it very differently. But the bottom line is that that view would be based on emotions like blind rage and a lust for revenge, and those are usually not good grounds to build a healthy society on.

The arguments that convince me of the death penalty's unacceptability are these: first, it doesn't work as a deterrent. That has been proven over and over again in practically every country and era. Criminals, especially murderers, often commit their crimes out of passion and lust with little beforehand reasoning of the consequences. Many times, they're so fucked up they don't even care what happens to themselves. The death penalty has been around since the dawn of civilization, and has it deterred crime? Hardly. The looming threat of execution has the effect of being the hardened criminal's last step of alienation from society, they argue that they've been receiving the short end of the stick their entire lives, and if the state is going to execute them anyway when they get caught, they might as well go on a killing spree or something. It is not a deterrent, it is a stimulant, fueling the merry-go-round cycle of violence in society as a whole. A testament to this is that countries that exercise the death penalty are usually more violent (both internally in having high crime rates, and externally as in fighting wars, etc.) than countries that have abolished it (there are of course exceptions, Japan comes to mind). So, I think that the anecdotal joke about the sheriff and the condemned man Jodo presented is a shadow argument, since the "deterrent effect" isn't about deterring the person in question, but deterring others from committing the same crime in the future (and here the death penalty has clearly proved it's uselessness throughout history). There is also in principle no argument in favour of having the death penalty instead of life imprisonment. Why not just lock them up for good and throw away the key? The only component that can justify the death penalty over life imprisonment is an emotive one: a kind of Biblical craving for "an eye for an eye". I don't agree with that view, but for many people that is the deciding factor.

I also don't agree at all with Cedille when he says "The biggest difference between death penalty and murder is the former is for a good cause". I've heard that argument a lot, but I don't understand how people who support it fail to see the logical flaw in it. If the deciding factor when it comes to killing someone is that it is for a "good cause", then what prevents people (like every two-bit psycho out there) from taking matters into their own hands and committing the "good kill" themselves? What gives the state a monopoly on the right to kill and the right to decide who should be killed and who shouldn't?

The primary reason I oppose the death penalty is that I do not want to entrust the state with the power to kill. Giving the state the power to execute people and then hoping they will always use that power "appropriately" (whatever that means) is just dumb. It always boggles my mind how even people who are critical of government meddling and overbearing bureaucracies somehow forget their reservations when the death penalty is involved. It clearly shows, I think, that they're not really thinking of the consequences for society or of any "justice", but rather want the state to act as an instrument of their thirst for revenge. Of course, when one reads stories as the one avatar! linked to, one can very much understand and sympathize with that standpoint (and to be sure, there have been much worse crimes committed than those). The problem is, as Jay pointed out, who decides who should live and die? Killing someone is irrevocable, and when the state has killed even one innocent person, it has basically lowered itself to the same level as the people who commit murder. And we all know there have been a lot of innocent people executed throughout history, and still are today. The justification for the death penalty rests on the most retarded argument in the history of mankind: "If you haven't done anything wrong, you have nothing to fear". If you trust the authorities with the power to kill, you should just bend over and be ready to take whatever else they want you to. And the sad truth about our world is that too many people do both.

Grassie Feb 25, 2009

A friend of mine once said, discussing the matter:
"I'm going to become Darth Stupidious once, and then I will ensure death penalty for all of you! Because you all deserve it! My own sense of judgment will prevail! And then, young lads, you will die."

That represents my opinion very well. Perhaps I wouldn't have articulated it in exactly that manner myself, but I still like the way he said it.

Come to think of it, once upon a time in the Great Kingdom of France, if a man was sentenced to death for killing his wife due to her infidelity, he would be spared. Because every sane man would understand his judgment to be right due to the circumstances.

Cedille Feb 25, 2009

Daniel K wrote:

If the deciding factor when it comes to killing someone is that it is for a "good cause", then what prevents people (like every two-bit psycho out there) from taking matters into their own hands and committing the "good kill" themselves? What gives the state a monopoly on the right to kill and the right to decide who should be killed and who shouldn't?

Personally, I don't think the good cause set by a psycho and the one by the whole society are the same. The former is often driven by their own ego or self interest. Not that the latter is always right and objective, but as far as capital punishment goes, the Judiciary in my country has only executed overwhelmingly heinous criminals so far, so I have no issue with their having the right to determine who to be killed or not (if any, I do think they should execute more).

But yeah, I know more than half countries have already abolished death penalty, and as much as I feel odd when capital punishment is seen as akin to murder, I think I'm in a minority.

Dais Feb 25, 2009

longhairmike wrote:

got a calculator handy?? we probably spend more taxpayer money annually to keep prisoners incarcerated than their annual earning potential if they were out.

.......

or until the state budget crisis forces a mass release.

so it should be a financial judgment, not a moral one?

Singapore law handles things quite nicely...

hahah, what? you can be executed in singapore if they think you're selling weed.

Bernhardt Feb 25, 2009 (edited Feb 25, 2009)

Daniel K wrote:

The arguments that convince me of the death penalty's unacceptability are these: first, it doesn't work as a deterrent. That has been proven over and over again in practically every country and era. Criminals, especially murderers, often commit their crimes out of passion and lust with little beforehand reasoning of the consequences. Many times, they're so fucked up they don't even care what happens to themselves. The death penalty has been around since the dawn of civilization, and has it deterred crime? Hardly. The looming threat of execution has the effect of being the hardened criminal's last step of alienation from society, they argue that they've been receiving the short end of the stick their entire lives, and if the state is going to execute them anyway when they get caught, they might as well go on a killing spree or something. It is not a deterrent, it is a stimulant, fueling the merry-go-round cycle of violence in society as a whole. A testament to this is that countries that exercise the death penalty are usually more violent (both internally in having high crime rates, and externally as in fighting wars, etc.) than countries that have abolished it (there are of course exceptions, Japan comes to mind). So, I think that the anecdotal joke about the sheriff and the condemned man Jodo presented is a shadow argument, since the "deterrent effect" isn't about deterring the person in question, but deterring others from committing the same crime in the future (and here the death penalty has clearly proved it's uselessness throughout history). There is also in principle no argument in favour of having the death penalty instead of life imprisonment. Why not just lock them up for good and throw away the key? The only component that can justify the death penalty over life imprisonment is an emotive one: a kind of Biblical craving for "an eye for an eye". I don't agree with that view, but for many people that is the deciding factor.

I agree with all that.

But imagine this: Imagine you'd been convicted of some sort of crime. Whether you're guilty or innocent is irrelevant.

Would you rather sit and rot in a cell the rest of your life, or would you rather be killed dead straightaway?

Honestly, I'd promote the Death Penalty for a lot of felonies; there isn't a whole lot of life left for a convicted felony, even if after they're released from prison, there aren't a whole lot of people who'll hire a convicted felon, and they've lost a good number of their rights. The fate of such a person is to return to prison, or commit whatever crimes they now need to commit in order to survive, e.g., robbery or murder, because now they've been rendered incapable of being a contributing, functional member of society, and for that, they're probably going to want revenge.

Death Penalty may not serve as a deterrent to other people who might commit crimes, but for the person who has already committed a crime, it deters them from committing yet another crime.

Look at it this way: Criminal dies, is freed from the court/law system jerking them off, and people don't have to worry about being screwed by the same person again. Everyone wins!

Smeg Feb 25, 2009

Bernhardt wrote:

Would you rather sit and rot in a cell the rest of your life, or would you rather be killed dead straightaway?

I would rather live. You cannot invent a circumstance horrible enough that I would not prefer life if I were given a choice. I do not think you are considering the finality of death seriously enough. Honestly, not being able to get a decent job as justification for execution? Guess a whole lot more folks better start offing themselves soon.

Ashley Winchester Feb 25, 2009

Bernhardt wrote:

Would you rather sit and rot in a cell the rest of your life, or would you rather be killed dead straightaway?

This is why I think life in prison is worse than the death penalty. I mean a person is going to die anyway, and considering how long most people sit on death row, why not make their life on earth a living hell - a prelude to the real thing (if you believe in such a thing.)

Bernhardt Feb 25, 2009

Smeg wrote:
Bernhardt wrote:

Would you rather sit and rot in a cell the rest of your life, or would you rather be killed dead straightaway?

I would rather live. You cannot invent a circumstance horrible enough that I would not prefer life if I were given a choice. I do not think you are considering the finality of death seriously enough.

WELL, I'm one of those deluded, religious folks who believe in life after death and the immortality of the soul.

Smeg Feb 25, 2009

Bernhardt wrote:
Smeg wrote:
Bernhardt wrote:

Would you rather sit and rot in a cell the rest of your life, or would you rather be killed dead straightaway?

I would rather live. You cannot invent a circumstance horrible enough that I would not prefer life if I were given a choice. I do not think you are considering the finality of death seriously enough.

WELL, I'm one of those deluded, religious folks who believe in life after death and the immortality of the soul.

See, that is perfectly fine and dandy. The problem arises when you apply those beliefs to the question of whether someone else should live or die. That it makes you feel alright about advocating a death penalty is scary.

Bernhardt Feb 26, 2009 (edited Feb 26, 2009)

Smeg wrote:
Bernhardt wrote:
Smeg wrote:

I would rather live. You cannot invent a circumstance horrible enough that I would not prefer life if I were given a choice. I do not think you are considering the finality of death seriously enough.

WELL, I'm one of those deluded, religious folks who believe in life after death and the immortality of the soul.

See, that is perfectly fine and dandy. The problem arises when you apply those beliefs to the question of whether someone else should live or die. That it makes you feel alright about advocating a death penalty is scary.

TRUE, but I'm also being fair; I'd allow the same rule I apply to everyone else also apply to me as well.

absuplendous Feb 26, 2009 (edited Feb 26, 2009)

Bernhardt wrote:

But imagine this: Imagine you'd been convicted of some sort of crime. Whether you're guilty or innocent is irrelevant.

Would you rather sit and rot in a cell the rest of your life, or would you rather be killed dead straightaway?

My answer was "sit in jail the rest of my life," and I assumed that was where you were going. If I'm innocent, there's always a chance my name will eventually be cleared and I'll be freed. If I'm executed, such an overturning won't do me much good. I'd rather cling to hope, even if fruitlessly, than give up.

ETA: Wow, this thread moves fast. Of course, a quote like that will get people talking. wink

Smeg Feb 26, 2009

Bernhardt wrote:
Smeg wrote:
Bernhardt wrote:

WELL, I'm one of those deluded, religious folks who believe in life after death and the immortality of the soul.

See, that is perfectly fine and dandy. The problem arises when you apply those beliefs to the question of whether someone else should live or die. That it makes you feel alright about advocating a death penalty is scary.

TRUE, but I'm also being fair; I'd allow the same rule I apply to everyone else also apply to me as well.

That isn't more reassuring to anyone who doesn't share your beliefs.

Bernhardt Feb 26, 2009 (edited Feb 26, 2009)

Virtual Boot wrote:
Bernhardt wrote:

But imagine this: Imagine you'd been convicted of some sort of crime. Whether you're guilty or innocent is irrelevant.

Would you rather sit and rot in a cell the rest of your life, or would you rather be killed dead straightaway?

My answer was "sit in jail the rest of my life," and I assumed that was where you were going. If I'm innocent, there's always a chance my name will eventually be cleared and I'll be freed. If I'm executed, such an overturning won't do me much good. I'd rather cling to hope, even if fruitlessly, than give up.

TRUE, but what're the chances're that people'll actually be willing to say, "Oops, we made a mistake..."

Smeg wrote:
Bernhardt wrote:
Smeg wrote:

See, that is perfectly fine and dandy. The problem arises when you apply those beliefs to the question of whether someone else should live or die. That it makes you feel alright about advocating a death penalty is scary.

TRUE, but I'm also being fair; I'd allow the same rule I apply to everyone else also apply to me as well.

That isn't more reassuring to anyone who doesn't share your beliefs.

True, there IS the chance that what I believe is, in fact, bullocks; that's not too reassuring to myself, either!

If such being the case, I'd still choose non-existence over an existence of suffering.

longhairmike Feb 26, 2009

we interrupt this thread for an important announcement:

apparently it is girl-scout cookie sales season again,, sweet!!

Jay Feb 26, 2009

I had no idea that was a seasonal thing.

longhairmike Feb 26, 2009

i would kill for some samoas right now... well,, providing i was not later charged with a capital crime...

Jodo Kast Feb 26, 2009

longhairmike wrote:

i would kill for some samoas right now... well,, providing i was not later charged with a capital crime...

You could use the Twinkie Defense....

Daniel K Feb 26, 2009

Dais wrote:
longhairmike wrote:

Singapore law handles things quite nicely...

hahah, what? you can be executed in singapore if they think you're selling weed.

Maybe this is the kind of justice he was thinking of.

avatar! Mar 9, 2009

http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/03/09/dea … index.html

Supreme Court just had a discussion about the death penalty themselves.
I still think the death penalty is all about justice, not whether it serves as a deterrent. Some agree, some don't... although seems to me it's always easy to be self-righteous when you're not the one suffering, and for those of you who get all defense, I'm not saying that all people against the death penalty are all self-righteous. There are extremists, on all sides of any issue.

cheers,

-avatar!

longhairmike Mar 10, 2009

a bunch of supreme court justices in their 90s might be a little biased towards making a religious-based decision,, seeing as death is right around the corner for them too...

Jodo Kast Mar 10, 2009

longhairmike wrote:

a bunch of supreme court justices in their 90s might be a little biased towards making a religious-based decision,, seeing as death is right around the corner for them too...

Well, at least they're not going to die prematurely. (An amusing advantage of old age.)

avatar! Mar 18, 2009

New Mexico:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090319/ap_ … new_mexico

they've outlawed the death penalty, although:

"The New Mexico Sheriffs' and Police Association opposed repealing the death penalty, saying capital punishment deters violence against police officers, jailers and prison guards. District attorneys also opposed the legislation, arguing that the death penalty was a useful prosecutorial tool."

This does bring up an interesting point. Why should someone who kills a police offer face different charges than killing anyone else? What makes police officers so special? I say, nothing. If someone commits murder, they should face dire consequences irregardless of whom the murder. This is something that's always bothered me about our criminal system. That, and the revolving door we have of course...

cheers,

-avatar!

Grassie Mar 19, 2009

avatar! wrote:

up an interesting point. Why should someone who kills a police offer face different charges than killing anyone else? What makes police officers so special? I say, nothing. If someone commits murder, they should face dire consequences irregardless of whom the murder. This is something that's always bothered me about our criminal system. That, and the revolving door we have of course...

cheers,

-avatar!

You run a higher risk of getting shot down when you're a police officer than a civilian. I think it is all about pragmatism. People need to be put off the thought of doing something bad to a policeman. In other words, stop being an idealist, avatar! smile

avatar! Mar 27, 2009

Grassie wrote:
avatar! wrote:

up an interesting point. Why should someone who kills a police offer face different charges than killing anyone else? What makes police officers so special? I say, nothing. If someone commits murder, they should face dire consequences irregardless of whom the murder. This is something that's always bothered me about our criminal system. That, and the revolving door we have of course...

cheers,

-avatar!

You run a higher risk of getting shot down when you're a police officer than a civilian. I think it is all about pragmatism. People need to be put off the thought of doing something bad to a policeman. In other words, stop being an idealist, avatar! smile

Hmmm, interesting point. Yes, they have a higher chance of getting shot than a civilian, but I'm sure if I was on active duty in Iraq I would have an even higher risk of getting shot, but that's part of the job. If there was a law that said anyone who hurts a police officer gets his/her hands chopped off, I'm sure people would be completely put off at doing them any harm! But is that right? Of course not! Besides being immoral and unconstitutional, it's also a double standard. Just because you have a more dangerous job, does not mean you should have "special rights". The US is built upon the idea "all men [and women] are created equal" and endowed with "unalienable rights". By the way, it appears to me that more often than not, police abuse their power (again, a double standard). Watch, and be mortified:

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/us/200 … spital.cnn

Jodo Kast Mar 28, 2009

avatar! wrote:

I can think of a way to be more mortified. With a human police force, there is still the possibility of negotiation in special circumstances, such as neglecting certain laws while rushing to the hospital. If Mr. Powell were a robot, then it would use its technology to contain the humans, possibly shooting them with a tranquilizer. There would be no chance to explain a special circumstance. Nor would there be any way to discipline the robot, other than reprogramming it. But if you give a robot the ability to engage in negotiation, then there is a great chance it could be fooled. So the advantage of using a biological police force is that negotiation is possible, while the disadvantage is discrimination is a factor. The advantage of using an artificial police force is that discrimination would not be a factor, while the disadvantage would be no more negotiating. Of course, if we get to the point that our police force is artificial, then hospitals might not exist. It's hard to predict what will still exist when things change, because it's not like just one thing will become more advanced.

longhairmike Mar 28, 2009

so i went to the car dealership the other day...

ME: hi, i'm looking to trade in my car
SALESPERSON: were you thinking of buying new?
ME: i'm sorry but the court ordered rehabilitation program prohibits me from having any direct contact with wildebeest. I was more interested in another automobile...

Jodo Kast Mar 28, 2009

longhairmike wrote:

so i went to the car dealership the other day...

ME: hi, i'm looking to trade in my car
SALESPERSON: were you thinking of buying new?
ME: i'm sorry but the court ordered rehabilitation program prohibits me from having any direct contact with wildebeest. I was more interested in another automobile...

I'll add more:

  SALESPERSON: So a new car just isn't for you?
  ME: Well, sir, I'm really not sure about that.

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