Wow, Big Brother rears his ugly head... (or is it ugly mouth?) straight into Ireland!

http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/europe/01 … index.html

and, here's the blog:

http://blog.atheist.ie/?p=104&cpage=1#comment-25337

Bjork, 1995: “I do not believe in religion, but if I had to choose one it would be Buddhism. It seems more livable, closer to men… I’ve been reading about reincarnation, and the Buddhists say we come back as animals and they refer to them as lesser beings. Well, animals aren’t lesser beings, they’re just like us. So I say f--- the Buddhists.”
-heh, I found that funny, although personally I tend to admire Buddhists.

So I guess these days, careful what you say in Ireland! I'm sure someone is bound to say "yeah well, is it any better in the US?!" and the answer is yes, yes it is (at least thus far)!

thoughts?

-avatar!

I love the hypocrisy that goes around these days.

People complain about how Christians judge everyone else, but isn't everyone else - who's NOT Christian, or religious, or God-fearing, or what have you - just judging them back?

I mean, hey, if you TRULY don't believe that God exists, why prattle on and on about it? He doesn't exist, and that's it. But NO, it's like you feel the need to try hard to convince yourself that God doesn't exist. You just WISH God doesn't exist, but in the back of your mind, there's still something nagging you that he does in fact, exist.

I have to adjust my perspective on the entertainment industry. While I tend to think of movies and video games as pecuniary pinnacles, it is really religion that sells the most. Religion contains the most popular character ever imagined by the human mind - God. This God character is so popular that laws are made to protect it from intelligent people. Video games and movies have laws protecting them and those laws are rather sensible. It makes sense to me that someone would not want me to copy a video game that they made. But I don't understand why I can't say that God does not exist. I can say that Darth Vader does not exist. What makes God any different? Just like Darth Vader, God was made by human imagination. I don't have to prove that statement any more than I have to prove that James Cameron made the movie Avatar. We all know that because we are all alive right now as it happened. But we weren't alive when some smart chap sat down and invented God. That is one disadvantage of the short human life span, the fact that we must rely on what others chose to record.

I used to think it was good to be respectful of religious beliefs. But when I read about what religious people have done to thinking people...well...that changed. Religious people don't think independently. They act as a group organism, like the Borg from Star Trek. Being religious means the complete dissemination of one's individuality, due to the fact that independent thoughts (evidence of thinking ability) can lead to Coventry (with the exception of some Eastern religions). While it's good that religious people function well together in their vast cliques, like a colony of termites (and about as intelligent), it's not good that they seek to undermine evidence discovered by people that seek truth, like Darwin or Galileo.

The way I handle the problem is to not dwell on the word belief. God does not exist. And there is no need to prove it, for the same reason there is no need to prove that gravity is real. And now I can have some fun, having expelled that. There may in fact be some intelligence that led to our existence. If such an entity (obviously alien) were discovered, many people would call it God. Thus God is an alien by default. If God is not an alien, then God is a human. Therefore, God must be an alien, regardless of how uncomfortable that may sound. It would not be surprising if such an alien were found; many ideas in science fiction tend to manifest themselves as mundane realities, like the cell phone. God is probably the first alien ever conceived of by human imagination, or, at least, the first one that was recorded and survived the unyielding flow of time.

(Note: I got this idea from Philip Jose Farmer, who stated that religion is the earliest form of science fiction.)

- religion, + pokemon,, i dont think god has had a starring role since actraiser.

Talk about going back a thousand years...

Whether a person allows themself to be brainwashed and caught up in hype is a function of that person, not some lifeless system.

I don't follow religion; I follow God.

The real blasphemers are those who would falsely proclaim that their own will is God's will, when such is not the case. Rest assured, such people will be answering for it on Judgment Day.

The fact that there have been religious people who have persecuted other people isn't a function of their religion - it's a function of human savagery and bloodlust, desire for domination and control over other humans - not loyalty or faithfulness to God.

After all, it is God who says "Thou shalt not Kill," and "Thou shalt not falsely accuse thy neighbor," a couple of tenants that even supposed followers of God are often so quick to break.

Indeed, if they were truly loyal and faithful to God, but would not have so quickly committed the atrocities that they would have.

Fact is, I'm all for separation of Church and State - the government can't say that it commits its atrocities in the name of God anymore, because doing so would be deceitful and blasphemous.

That's a pretty hefty fine. I wonder how they would go about enforcing that, and to what extent. If we had laws like that in the U.S., the entire media industry would be in trouble. Well, they'd probably just pay up and keep going. Not to worry though, since America's headed in the other direction. We censor God in our schools and have tried to shut down Christian discussion on public airwaves. As I see it: just let it go both ways.

People who rant on about there being no god end up sounding like they care a little too much, and arrogance doesn't befit intelligence. People who get all worked up over atheists/agnostics aren't setting a very good example of the teachings they follow, letting their offense speak instead of appealing to reason. Neither side can actually "prove" anything, but most people don't intend to change their stance on something from the outset anyway. Too many closed minds these days (and I'm talking about EVERYBODY). There are just as many stupid people in any given group. We tend to judge the other side based on those stupid people. Anyway, I'm not afraid to question things. I'm afraid not to.

And yes, religion is probably God's worst enemy. It's the number one turnoff in my experience.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I didn't think the US constitution actually stated that there was to be a separation between church and state - not saying it's a bad idea (but one that is a bit impossible considering the basis of our laws). Doesn't it basically say there is to be no declaration of an official, national religion and one can't be prosecuted for their beliefs?

But really, you can make any argument you want that there is no official religion in the US, but there really is, it's just not "official."

Additionally, this seems as good as time as any to say that anyone who labels themself a "Christian Conservative" scares the hell out of me.

Yes, the constitution does not actually say there has to be a separation between church and state, but it does state that you are free to practice your religion (so long as it doesn't impose on the rights of others of course).

The US truly does not have an official religion. Looky here:

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/bar1796t.asp
"As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion,-as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen,-and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."
***Note the important first line! This is from the Treaty of Tripoli (1797).

Although you're right in saying that Christianity is by far the largest religion in the US, and of course many of the laws we have are based on the original Torah (10 commandments, etc), but still the point is in the US your religion is protected under the Constitution. So is your freedom of speech, so if you say something that offends someone... well, they might get angry and violent of course, but they have no legal repercussion (ie you won't be fined a ridiculous amount)!

Anyway, I totally agree with your thoughts on this blasphemy law! It's definitely a giant step back for Ireland...

cheers,

-avatar!

Well, then it should definitely bode well that I do not identify myself by, nor associate myself with, any one political or religious affiliation.

Did you read the news? It's pretty much in complete opposition to the point you're trying to make.

You obviously haven't met my aunt's family. You could say I'm judging them back for their suffocating aura of faith, but aren't they the ones who believe there is only one judge and jury? Wouldn't that make them more of a hypocrite than I, someone who believes that there is something beyond what we can see but doesn't know exactly what it is?

I know, a hypocrite is a hypocrite no matter what level their hypocrisy stands at. But I'm not perfect, and neither are they no matter how hard they try to televise that they are. Who isn't a hypocrite in one way or another?

What about Batman, Wolverine, Luke Skywalker, Zeus, etc.? Why is God more important than other superheroes? What makes God different? Why do some people think that God was not created by human imagination, yet are able to understand that Batman was created by human imagination?

  To summarize my ideas so far:

  1. God could have been the first alien imagined by the human mind.
  2. God could have been a superhero, like we see in the comic book movies.
  3. God is definitely not real, any more than Luke Skywalker is real.
  4. God is 100% the product of human imagination, unless aliens visited us and wrote the bible.
  5. God is helpful for some people, like it's helpful for some children to have an imaginary friend.

I get a kick out of this one, the comparison is just too funny - mainly because I can imagine how insulted some people would be reading/hearing this... I think it's funny when people get their panties in a bunch, over religion or something else.

Still, the comparision doesn't work on another level - many people have been killed in wars over "God" but I don't think anyone has started a war because their imaginary friend "Eddie" told them it was a good idea. Of course, Eddie could just be pretending to be god, just like then President Bush said he answers to a "higher power." Kind of creepy when you think about it...

since this is already a european rant thread,, id like to add one.

f--- SPAIN's POST OFFICE!!

Label/Receipt Number: EC701112807US
Class: Express Mail International®
Status: Into Foreign Customs

Detailed Results:
   
-Into Foreign Customs, January 04, 2010, 1:09 pm, SPAIN
-Arrived Abroad, January 04, 2010, 1:09 pm, SPAIN
-International Dispatch, December 05, 2009, 4:43 pm, ISC CHICAGO IL (USPS)
-Arrival
-Processed through Sort Facility, December 04, 2009, 4:51 pm, PALATINE, IL 60095
-Acceptance, December 04, 2009, 4:43 pm, ELK GROVE VILLAGE, IL 60007
-Electronic Shipping Info Received, December 04, 2009

russian cosmonauts rarely spend that much time off the earth...
of course we were already forced to send out replacements dec 20th or face a $330 paypal chargeback

If God doesn't exist, I have proofs he was invented to make people who do not believe in him feel superior about not believing. It's just as simple, really.

Yes, I have read the news. I, on the other hand, am talking about how people bitch about other people who believe in God, namely those talking in response to the news article at hand.

Because when I consider how savage and treasonous humans can be towards each other, I don't consider them creative enough to imagine someone or something who's infinitely benevolent and merciful. Selflessness isn't natural to the human species.

After all, you, Jodo, seem trouble fathoming anything for which there isn't a sound, scientific, proven explanation for. How could your little mind possibly imagine up a God?

I'm saying that, since it's impossible for humans to create any notion of a God, that it wouldn't have occurred to humans that God actually exists, unless God actually DOES exist.

Wow, that is actually a good point! My co-worker brought up something similar one day and I wasn't able to come up with a real counter-point. Isn't the first obligation of any organism survival? The second is reproduction. (George Carlin: survival is more important than F^%$ing). Also, isn't human kind the only species that will kill another member of its own species? (The Praying Mantis may be an exception.) Sometimes for paper we think has monetary value? We're really advanced, aren't we?

But really, I did think of a counter argument to his statement. I asked him if people (including him) are so selfish, why did he bother getting married and have kids. Still, this argument is somewhat self-defeating, as you may have a better chance at survival in greater numbers, and if you've fulfilled the survival clause, you'd move right up to reproduction, right?

Still, I don't think humans are born savage and treasonous. They say God is in the face of every child; when you think about it, that actually makes a lot of sense. People learn to be savage and treasonous. Young children may accidentally hurt each other physically or emotionally, but there is no real malice behind it because they don’t know any better. Only when a child gets older do they intentionally inflict pain on one another, emotional or otherwise. For example, when you were in grade school, you wanted to hang out with your friends because you enjoyed being around them, when you're a teenager, it's basically about what they can use you for. A bit cynical, but oftentimes true...

I'm willing to read those proofs, provided you give Batman equal measure.

I don't have a problem in this world with God, anymore than I have a problem with pegasus. It's just that I want things to be defined in such a way that I am not confused. I can find flaws in the traditional definition of God, which means there is something wrong with the definition. So I have had to go through years of laborious research in my need (like breathing) to come up with a more sensible definition. God does exist, in the same way that Batman exists. Intangible, a product of human imagination. Imagine if people started saying that Batman was real; that would drive me bonkers. It's quite clear that Batman is not real, just like it's quite clear that God is not real. Yet they both intangibly exist. I would bet every proton in my body that the intangible world is larger than the tangible world.

You aren't by chance getting this from the South Park: Imaginationland trilogy are you?

Wow.

That is just...wow...

Now I don't like participating in God Topics on any kind of Internet Forum anywhere, because it really is one of the most pointless things you can do, but this is seriously one of the dumbest arguments I have ever heard in my entire life.

Bernhardt, dude, you're a good guy, and I'm not telling you to give up your religion, but seriously, at least try and THINK about what you are saying, cos this is the biggest nonsense I've ever seen.

Human mind could not imagine God!? How is God in any way different from other figures of which we are at least SURE they are imagined, like Batman?
What on EARTH makes a benign, benevolent creature HARDER TO IMAGINE than one that flies through the night in a cape!?

Are you saying we can imagine Hobbits, Dwarves, Elves, Wizards, Leprechauns, Tooth Fairies and whatever, but NOT God, simply because he's nicer than everyone else!!?!?!?

Let's look at it like this: how about Allah? How about Buddha? How about Zeus/Jupiter, and the rest of the Greek/Roman pantheon?)
Do they all exist? By your logic all Gods (well the benign ones at least) should exist because we cannot possibly imagine them with our puny evil brains. As if imagination has some kind of limit determined by the NATURE of what you're imagining!? That's so ridiculous I'm (almost) lost for words.

If anything, the very fact that humans are a bunch of backstabbing self-centered savages pretty much dictates that they have the need for an (imagined) figure that ISN'T. Fictional Characters tend to become popular because they can do things real people can't.

You seem to be seriously underestimating the powers of imagination of the human race.

I find it hard to see how anyone can seriously compare God with Batman. Casually, maybe. I mean, I understand the point trying to be made; it makes general sense on the surface. But I have to admire your faith for being able to lump the idea of an Almighty Creator in with the likes of a comic book hero and put it out of mind. Millions of people believe in God, and not in Batman. That in itself sets them apart. And why is that? Because humans are weak, needy, insecure creatures and want something to believe in--a hope for the masses and a promise of an afterlife so our existence here on earth won't seem so pointless? Sure, you can write it off as that. That common answer actually works both for and against the existence of God, depending how you look at it. I think God and science are not in opposition, however, and you could even say each upholds the other. That is a topic for much deep debating, and there are very good arguments on both sides. I've listened to enough theology to make my head spin. If only my brain would retain the information better.

Caution: wall of text ahead

It's certainly hard to believe in a one true God, but to throw out the possibility altogether is dangerous. On the one hand you have an idea such as multiple universes and random chance. On the other, God and eternity. God is the only answer that wraps up all the questions. That also seems like a cop-out, true. Does that erase the possibility though? Of course not.

To blindly follow a religion and put oneself through its traditions while condemning others is indeed dumb. To discount the possibility of God and say you KNOW he doesn't exist is also lame (more so if you have only done limited research on the matter with a biased and narrow mind). You don't even know if YOU exist, technically speaking, but that's a whole different subject. And while we're at it, to remain ignorant and not care either way is probably dumb too! I don't mean to call anyone here dumb, I'm speaking in broad terms.

What exactly are we living for, anyway? Just because? To contribute to altruism for a species we don't honestly care about in the long run? If I had absolutely no hope of anything beyond this life--if I imagined there being nothing but what we see here and no provision for any type of improvement down the road--I would probably either become a self-appointed assassin and reenact my favorite video game fantasies, or simply take a free fall off a magnificent cliff. I'm still here because I've been through the wringer on these issues and I do have a hope. (Call it self-delusion or a placebo if you want, but only I know that I can't lie to myself.) I'm still learning.

Finally, biology hasn't been able to adequately explain morals, and the notion of good and evil. (Btw, if you don't believe in good and evil then you can't call something like religion evil. You can't call it "bad" either, because then we'd have to define what everyone's concept of bad is. The whole argument of right and wrong being relative always seems to end up self-defeating.) I don't mean to start a debate or anything (I'm usually not clever enough to match wits in a debate), I just thought the idea of God was being passed off too easily and wanted to share my perspective. I enjoy reading everyone's thoughts, because they help to challenge my own.

I can do it because both God and Batman are characters in books. We know that humans write books and it's possible that intelligent aliens (if they exist) also write books. Therefore, God was either imagined by some human or some alien, and then recorded into a book. I don't see how God can have a different status than Batman or the Incredible Hulk, etc. As I pointed out earlier, the only possible way there can be a real God (the God) is if it's an alien. That is not very hard to grasp, but it is also not very intuitive, because we don't normally associate aliens in our minds that way. Plus, using the traditional definition of God, he created all the aliens (if they exist). But I'm simply saying that God is not a human, which makes him an alien. This does not in any way prevent him from making other intelligent life. But the God that might really exist can never fit the traditional definition. God is an ideal entity and we know that ideal things do not exist, just realistic ones. As I have once heard, "There are ideal situations, but we can only experience realistic ones."

  The greatest argument against God's omnipotence is that he can not be I. Or you. Or any human. Humans are not omnipotent. Therefore, if God were a human, then he would not be omnipotent. This is why the traditional definition of God is flawed. And that makes sense, since he is simply the product of human imagination.

I remember thinking that animals (other than humans) only kill members of the same species when survival is at stake. Then, I started watching lots of great nature shows (David Attenborough is amazing) and I learned that the answer to:
"isn't human kind the only species that will kill another member of its own species?" -is NO!
Surprisingly, MANY species will kill each other. The most obvious example is chimpanzees. Rival groups of chimpanzees will kill each other off, for no apparent reason (ie there's plenty of food and space) -they seriously have raiding parties and completely kill off other groups! However, it's not just ape. Lions, elephants, bears... and not just mammals! However, other than chimpanzees, I don't think any other species is quite as violent as humans are.

As for are people born "evil" or "good"? This is the old nurture vs nature question. Although this is far from being solved, current scientific evidence points to the notion that both are very important. In other words, it's NOT true that all kids are born innocent and "learn" to become treacherous and cruel. It does indeed seem that some kids are born cruel and vicious. Take for example:

http://www.wlky.com/news/21800321/detail.html

the above is just one of numerous examples! The kid seems to have everything a kid could want, and then he just goes off and kills a child... and his brother at that! However, it's also very well documented that a child who's had a difficult upbringing is much more likely to commit crimes and/or murder. So, I do indeed think some people are born treacherous, and others learn to become so.

At the same time I think there are plenty of altruism int he world. I simply don't understand this statement "Selflessness isn't natural to the human species". Everyone has certain survival traits. Most people do not want to die! However, there are NUMEROUS instances of people who have selflessly given up their lives to save others. So, if you consider 'making the ultimate sacrifice' selfless, then clearly there is a certain natural degree of selflessness in the human species.

Anyway, I am glad people are being passionate but also respectful in their responses!
However, I have to admit my original post was NOT about whether God exist or not... it was about people having the freedom to express their own personal opinion, even if it angers others! When the government stars to limit your freedoms, well I think it's a quick spiral fall into the abyss.

cheers,

-avatar!

Well, I'm not sure what the traditional definition of God is, but if he's a supernatural being that set the laws of the universe, that means he's outside of our comprehension, and indeed can be classified as "alien" to us. Preposterous as it might be to imagine, if he does exist then any limitations fall away.

As for being a character in a book; either he was imagined and put into print, or he existed before literature, and was put into print. The "character" of God on paper has no bearing on his existence. IF he really exists then he is different than Batman. But since I can't personally prove Him any more than I can DISprove Batman, your point stands. My main objection was how you can dismiss the whole concept of God with such surety, comparing him to characters created in the last century and who we know the authors of. I mean, we are talking about God here, a concept with much more at stake and which concerns our entire future. Still, your point is well taken, to a certain degree.
I'm not sure what you meant about God being human, unless you were referring to the person of Jesus, which is only one facet of who he is. But I don't even want to delve into the Trinity unless I have a lot of free time. That feeling is probably mutual.
To me, having a theory of God really isn't any less plausible than having a theory for billions of universes existing, with ours being the one that got it right (this seems to be the popular idea at the moment--to explain the Big Bang--if I'm not mistaken). It's just that chance fits easier into most people's natural understanding of science, not being as crazy or radical as an invisible God who always was. Still, the Big Bang or whatever happened required some sort of force to start it. The original material had to come from somewhere.

Just to stay on topic: I don't like being thought of as a moron for believing in God, but I wouldn't want to punish someone just out of my offense. The "sacred" can keep its own, and slander should be enjoyed by those who get off on that sort of thing. It's a flash in the pan. Anyway, laws like those only serve to further aggravate the situation, as we've seen from the past. Laws like those are just begging to be bucked.
I don't like beating people over the head with what I believe. I do like watching other people go at it though. Red-faced and spittle flying. I love my family.

dudes!!! STOP BEING ALL SERIOUS ALREADY!! last time i heard a religious debate this deep was Final Fantasy tactics. Take a break and watch some South Park or something.

I am. I'm ironically watching the "Christian Rock Hard" episode where Cartman forms a Christian rock band. That's a good one...

Edit:

Ah, tactics... nothing like being labeled a Heretic. I like games where you fight "god" or are against the church. Uh, plz, don't read into that.

Well you're a five, five, five and a six, six, six...

Of course. If God really exists then he is no longer intangible, even if he exists outside of our normal 3 dimensional space. You don't need to disprove Batman because we all know that he is the product of human imagination. Bear in mind that this might not be the case 2,000 years from now...(we have the advantage of being alive while this information is readily available).

Ah, that is a bit tricky. I didn't actually come up with the idea myself. It was Philip Jose Farmer (in the novel The Unreasoning Mask) who pointed out that God can not actually be a human. The main character in the novel was Ramstan. Well, here's the exact excerpt that really shocked me (about 6 years ago):

  "So...he was Ramstan? So what? He was unique, but so was every sentient being. So, for that matter, was every one of the millions of seemingly alike trees on this land. The difference was that he was sentient, self-conscious, and he had a self or a series of selves called Ramstan, and that Ramstan had a body-mind and a development through a unique environment that no one else had. No one, not even God. God might know every sentient, might even participate in the full consciousness and unconsciousness of every unique sentient. But not even He could be that person. There were limits even to God's powers. Which, since God was by definition all-powerful, meant that God was not God. Which meant that the definition should be restated."

   That's exactly what I meant. God can not be me. No how, no way. Although Farmer didn't point it out, I made the follow-up conclusion and reasoned that since humans are not omnipotent, God can never be a human. God can assume a human form, but he can't be an actual human. This shows that God is not omnipotent, which means the definition of God needs to be restated, as Farmer pointed out. Also, since there is a flaw in the definition of God, this makes his existence very questionable.

   As for the Big Bang and the original material, I would also like to know where it came from. The latest idea in physics is we need something called quantum gravity theory to make sense of the small distances prevalent in the early femtoseconds of the universe. Physicists are pretty certain that quarks and gluons have no substructure and that the earliest form of matter was a quark-gluon plasma. That's where my knowledge ends. If we know of something more basic than the QGP, then it's classified. I can't even begin to guess what pre-dated the quarks, unless you accept cosmic strings.

This helps me understand what's in my head. I mean, I really don't know what's in there until I approximate it with groups of Roman letters. Amazingly, there is something in there. I'm always able to dig out some crude representation of my consciousness. Think about it. There's no need to think. I could just carry out basic functions and still remain alive. What advantage does this activity of thought provide me with?

Haven't you heard? He's the Goddamn Batman.

Is it wrong that the topic makes me think of Vic Ireland every time instead of, you know, the actual country?

My stance is humanity is that, we're neither born good nor evil, we're just concerned with survival, the way most creatures' minds are naturally wired. It's just that normal survival can end up being pretty brutal, even if that's not its intent.

And then it's outside forces that come in, and they either teach us benevolence and mercy, or the "joys" of killing, thieving, and/or raping with malicious intent.

In other words, two methods (Survival and Evil) result in a lot of people being dead, while last (Good) results in people being spared.

When you get down to its core, Christianity isn't supposed to be about judging others, it's about the individual making up for their past mistakes. It's supposed to be a self-reflection shtick.

Heh, Christian rock = so bleh, plus there is that back-in-my-mind cynicism that they're only doing it for the money, namely from people who don't feel comfortable listening to music that DOESN'T have some reference to God in it.

Well, to be fair, when Jesus was alive, he didn't go around condemning "Sinners," rather, he told off religious authorities, and told them they were pretty much full of bullshit.