Ok, so our government has decided to make fingerprints mandatory for all new passports (incl. renewals ofcourse). These will be stored in a national database. This goes beyong the EU regulation on Human Rights. It's ridiculous, it's morally and ethically wrong and who knows what could be done with those fingerprints. I can't travel without a passport ofcourse.

And who knows what's next? A biometric passport, where they will put a chip into your body? Possibly and that would be horrific...I'm not one of conspiracy theories per se, but I'm interested in these things. Anyone here following this?

The idea is to prevent terrorists from obtaining fake passports, not to bust someone because their fingerprints were found on the buttcheeks of a dead sheep...

I see a reason for bad people to be alarmed. Good people shouldn't have anything to worry about, since the system is designed to cull the bad ones. Of course, each person is 'good' in their own opinion, so the system will catch those that violate someone's opinion. I read in Discover that China has started or is going to start forcing all citizens to wear RFIDs that contain personal information. And the U.S. military wants to make a database that shows the exact whereabouts of each person on the planet at any given moment. That's a little more aggressive than what the Netherlands is doing, but the reason is the same - to facilitate the capture of terrorists.

The notion of being monitored in any way without one's approval is alarming, but it's something we'll all get used to. Science fiction has already covered the most extreme case of losing privacy, in the novel The Light of Other Days. Young people, as they do now, simply adapted to a world where all of their actions could be observed by anyone at anytime. If you grow up in it, then you won't know the difference. It only truly horrifies those that have their lives altered.

I do understand why there's reason for alarm. It's easy for any government to say everything done is "in the name of security" or to "help combat terrorism". This of course is exactly what happens in Orwell's novel. You should always ask "how exactly is this measure going to be used to combat terrorism?" Perhaps it really is legit. On the other hand, you might get something like the Patriot Act which is one of the most useless pieces of legislature in my opinion (at least useless in combating terrorism, but very useful in government spying). I know that in London they say you should assume you're videotaped anywhere outside in any public place. How does this help stop crime? I believe statistically this has not deterred crime at all, but I find this notion that everything you do videotaped very terrifying. Anyway, I could ramble on and on, but I personally think it's always good to be leery of your government.

cheers,

-avatar!

Wow I honestly thought that by now everyone here would have acknowledged that the 'war on terror' story is a big hoax.

Jodo, your point on whether it alters your life is good. I mean it may very well not affect my life and I am blind to more than a few things I'm sure. Heck I've hardly bothered with these things in my life (like most people). But I don't think ignorance is bliss...and I'd like to increase my awareness and see what system I'm part of. Besides this is not so much a matter of your life being altered but more one of principles and where to draw the line of government control.

How is it there in the States right now by the way?

As far as I can tell, there are cameras everywhere but inside my condo unit (there are at least 2 I know of on the outside). Speed cameras are starting to be installed on the highways in my area. Red light cameras have been around for years. As is the case in England, it's pretty much safe to assume that you are being filmed at all times once you step outside of your habitat (private living space). This does not help to reduce crime, because being filmed is not an immediate punishment. It's something that has consequences in the future and criminals are not concerned with such things. Once roving security droids are on the streets, we probably will see a drop in crime. Because they can offer immediate punishments.

Anyway, as an EU citizen, you can travel with your ID card in all EU right..?

Nope, even your ID-card needs a fingerprint...

be a rebel,, lop off all but your middle fingers... that way you can protest in 2 ways at once...

Dude, from one Dutchman to another, you are blowing this WAY out of proportion.
It's just fingerprints!
It's not as if they will know where you are, what you ate, how many drinks you had and which games you played at any given moment, just by looking at your fingerprints, is it?

Comparing this to 1984, or even body chips, is completely exaggerating.

Like Jodo said, it should only bother people with bad intentions.
As long as you don't start going around pillaging, raping and murdering, I'm sure the government will never find out you keep those old Playboy issues under your bed.

Dude, I am not blowing this out of proportion...please do some research before saying that. Like Avatar said it's not unwise to be leery of one's government. I'm not here to sound alarm, but to open a discussion. It's easy to think 'it's just fingerprints', but they are going to be stored in a database and how safe is this? What are they going to do with this and what's next? We have not been properly informed on this issue.

PS: Longhairmike, thanks for your excellent contribution to the topic.

This is often thrown out in situations like this and it assumes that the people doing the fingerprinting and every single person in that system are above reproach. If there is a government that fits that description on this planet, I have not yet heard of it.

And, as Jodo pointed out, the definitions of 'bad' intentions is entirely defined on the basis that those making the definition see themselves as 'good'.

Until a government and everyone working for them and with them are above reproach (won't happen in my lifetime and may never happen) the rights and privacy of the individual absolutely have to be protected.

I'd just like to point out that this is standard procedure with fingerprints. They're useless unless one has something to which to compare them. If a person commits a crime and fingerprints are found on the scene, they don't have meaning until a match has been found. Sure, after the suspect has been captured comparisons can be made, but that's all after the fact. With a database of fingerprints, the evidence can be used to preemptively look for a suspect.

It's common practice for criminals to have their fingerprints stored in various local and national databases. In fact, my fingerprints were put on record when I was hired (I work in healthcare). I'm not one to trust the government, but I wouldn't see this as alarming. And most certainly nothing like 1984. Fingerprints are old news and of limited usefulness. Not to mention that it's only passports.

Now, if they start putting cameras in homes or mandatory microchips in babies... then I'll have something to get hot and bothered about.

Gonna have to agree with this.  I had to get mine taken when getting my teaching license (presumably to cross-reference and make sure I'm not wanted anywhere for doing anything horrible to kids), and it didn't really bother me much.  I also think I had to give them last time I entered Japan (they were... or are?... fingerprinting all foreigners).  Compared to a LOT of the things that the U.S. allowed themselves to do when the Patriot Act came up, this doesn't really bother me.

Quoted for truth, bolded for emphasis. I'm not super worried about the fingerprint thing, although I do follow a similar thought pattern as Yuv. Personally, I think that it's total bullshit and is probably a precursor to other intrusive and creepy methods of being tracked/labeled/categorized/inventoried by people in power. Although I probably won't flip my shit until they start with microchips/implants/forced vaccinations or until martial law goes into effect. Either or.

As they unfortunately say, never let a crisis go to waste.

Edit:

Kind of sounds like the new healthcare bill... socialized medicine even sounds creepy.

And not fingerprinting all their own citizens as well? Yeah, sounds like the Japan I've come to know.

Yeah, pretty much.  Though it's worth noting that I should've been a bit clearer - this is just people entering the country.  I don't think they went around the country forcing foreigners living there to do it or anything.

i don't see the connection. why is that creepy?

this is a joke, right?

The Government ALREADY knows when you're having sex as it is...they eat popcorn and laugh their asses off while they watch...

Yeah, 'cuz that's all the justification you need to do any invasive thing...

People are just so afraid to live their lives as-is, it just makes life not worth living when you fear everything, and thus feel the need to control it...so what if our lives became 100% safe? What, then? Would that really make them better?