Whew.  Something like 120 hours of Konami after I began, I finished my straight playthrough of the first three Suikoden titles.  I'm avoiding putting this in the epic Suikoden V thread because I don't want to derail that conversation AND I'm trying to avoid what looks like massive spoilers all over the latter half of it.  That said, I feel like talking about what I think of this series that I've just experienced for the first time myself.

Okay, let's not beat around the bush.  I'll allow all the Suikoden fans here to start wailing and gnashing their teeth right off the bat: I found Suiko3 to be the big payoff for getting through the first two titles.

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Still with me?  Okay then.  Let me go into detail.

Suikoden I: I probably missed out on a lot by playing this as late as I did.  Wow, is this game dated.  Not just graphically, but in terms of how the plot is presented as well.  A lot of RPGs tend to be very good at storytelling.  Suikoden I has a pretty solid (but not special or spectacular) story that isn't told all that well.  Things happened... I could tell they wanted me to be sad, but I just couldn't bring myself to care all that much.  When you fight your father, the game decides that you have to kill him just because the writers wanted you to feel sad, despite the fact that you let every other general live to become parts of the 108 stars.  As far as silent protagonists go, McDohl was pretty lacking in personality compared to, say, Crono from CT or Mario from Mario RPG (well okay the latter is a totally different type of rpg, but still).  So much of the game felt like an experimentation in cramming as much content into as short a game as possible, and I was left wondering what people saw in it.  It's certainly not bad, but the lack of much character development and pretty generic plot didn't make me love it.  Also, Gremio is just plain creepy.

Suikoden II: Definitely a step up from Suikoden I.  A lot of the characters returning from the first game (Flik, Viktor, Futch, etc.) were much more fleshed out in this outing than they were in the first game.  I found Riou to have a whole lot more personality than McDohl ever did, and the game managed to get to me emotionally far better than the first one.  Say what you will about all the scary people who write weird and scary fanfics about the Suikoden series, Riou and Jowy do make a rather nice couple together.  When, you know, they're not sending armies against each other to kill each other.  I was rather happy that I got the 108 ending so they could reunite at the end.  All in all, a solid, enjoyable game. 

Again, though, while character development was improved from Suiko1, I still felt that a lot of other rpgs have had more interesting stories overall.  And then there are my gameplay complaints.  Another thing I should mention right now is that I thought the TPRG sections of all three games were pretty much crap.  The first game depended nearly entirely on luck.  This one instead turns into a pseudo-real strategy rpg system in which I fall asleep during the 40 or so turns it takes for my troops to reach the enemy or vice versa while moving a bunch of them one square each turn.  zzzzzzzzz.  I was also annoyed that enemies in Suiko2 took FOREVER go change to "let go" even when they were giving practically nothing for exp.  And then there's the QA issues... there are so many things in the game's translation that just don't make sense, especially later in the game.  I ended up just not talking to NPCs or... anyone, as long as I could help it.  And the glitches.  Considering I once lost a half hour of progress when Tinto Mansion didn't load properly and I ended up walking around in the black void between where areas were stored on the disc, I think Konami could've done a little bit better job debugging.  Moving on.

Suikoden III: I can understand why Suikoden fans don't like this game, actually.  It's different.  The transition into 3D is pretty damn awkward.  But at the same time, I found it brilliant.  I LOVED all of the characters and thought that the triple perspective was one of the most interesting ways to see an RPG story ever.  From the end of the very first chapter when Chris kills Lulu, I knew that the game was willing to show relationships between characters the way few games in the genre ever have.  At 66 hours, I spent more time on this game than on the first two combined, and it actually felt shorter.  More members of the 108 were fleshed out and realized than ever before.  I couldn't wait to come home and advance the game to see what was going to happen to everyone.  There was a distinct difference for me between "Eh, I guess I'll get back to playing Suiko2 now" and "Argh!  Need to finish cleaning up the dinner mess so I can turn the PS2 on to see Chris' perspective on that!"

Combat in Suiko3 was a bit of a mixed bag.  Like most 3D conversions, battles are much slower than the previous entries, which is kinda bad.  The large-scale battles were even lamer than Suiko2's.  Thankfully it felt like the "let go" option showed up earlier again so I never was required to battle annoying long battles for no exp like I always felt I was doing in Suikoden II.  I also played both of Thomas' chapters and felt pretty engaged throughout, despite the fact that they were quite different from the rest of the game.  And of course the final chapter of villainy unlocked was just plain awesome.  It was good getting to see Leknaat again and the final scene between her and Luc's little glowing spirit made me smile.

Speaking of Luc, I want to go back to the comment I made that Suikoden III is the payoff for Suiko1 and 2.  While I didn't think I and II were that special, I certainly don't think I would've liked Suikoden III nearly as much if I hadn't played them, especially because of Luc's character.  I think the villains would've just fallen flat for me if I hadn't found out I was fighting a playable character from the previous games.

Okay, I think that's it.  There's a LOT more I could say about the series, but that's all I can think of off the top of my head and this is a relatively long post already.  I'm curious to know what anyone else thinks of my appraisal of this highly-regarded series.

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My word . . . it just struck me. I've owned Suiko 3 and 4 for almost six months, but haven't even popped either of them into the PS2 . . . Same with Silent Hill 1-3. Man, I gotta get crackin'!

PS: Suiko V just keeps getting better!

Hm, wasn't her name Annallee?  Annabelle was the mayor of Muse, wasn't she? ;)

And not only were we deprived of "Two Rivers," but also "La Mia Tristezza," "Orrizonte," "La Passione Commuove La Storia" and the war theme "Battlefield Without Light" -- pretty much anything that had vocals in it, save for the Opening Theme.

I still wonder if that was a conscious decision on KoA's part, or if they simply couldn't get the songs to stream correctly when it came to the programming?

I think I'm going to kill you now.  Both you and Joe, for insulting my main man Gremio.  -_-;;

Wow, I had no idea the European version was different. I actually got the US version because, at the time, it really didn't look like there would ever be an EU version.

Any word on an English language release of the PSP conversions?

Do that!

Congrats on completing the games.

Response to McCall: Riou is recognized as the adopted son of Genkaku anyways, who turns out to be a war hero after all, and the angle is played up a bit, so I don't think it's all that different from Teo and Tir except that S2 is more about Riou and Jowy.

Suikoden II might be better than the first game, but not by much.  It's like a more detailed and lengthy retelling of the first story.  I look at it as an extension of the first game, just with Nanami instead of Gremio and other changes.  And of course there's the Matsuno-inspired Riou and Jowy story that takes center stage.

For some reason I felt more connected with the main group from the first game.  Cleo, Pahn, and co. felt more like family and I thought that was cool.  As for Flik and Victor being more fleshed out, I'm not sure that's entirely true.  At least not in terms of actual development.  Flik doesn't develop at all in the second game whereas in the first game he develops from being a hot head to being a true hero.  With Victor it's sort of the same story again with Neclord.  Both fellows play more of a supporting role in the second game with the experience they got being directly involved in the first game.

I think that the key difference in storytelling is that the music plays more of a prominent role in the first game.  Sort of like in FFIV where the Theme of Love tells you that you should care about Cecil and Rosa more than any dialog.  It worked for me though it may not work as well for everyone.  I should mention that I do think the first Suikoden has a considerably better soundtrack than that of the second game.  It's definitely a top ten choice among VGM for me.

So how is Suikoden II better than the first game?  Well, it has a better castle and a greater sense of scope.  I'd also say that the side characters are probably better.  Ridley is too cool.  Otherwise I think they're comparable overall except that the first game does have more charm.  They're good stand alone RPGs, but together they make an excellent one-two punch of RPG, and they both have that classic 2D feel to them.

Suikoden III I only played for five hours and put down out of boredom.  I didn't care for the tag team combat system and I didn't feel totally connected to the experience.  It was probably a mistake to start with Geddoe though.  I've considered restarting as someone else but have never gotten around to it.

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Don't forget the people in SII who spout complete gibberish because they're trying to speak Japanese that KoA apparently overlooked and well, that just won't work over here

I like that you enjoyed SIII, since in my mind it gets a lot of unfair flak. Yeah, I too found the game did start off slow, but the first 5-10 hrs is not the whole game by any stretch of the imagination. (Although, starting off as Hugo is probably the slowest for me. Geddoe had my most enjoyable chapters, mostly cause I really liked his team. Bad thing is having to trek over that damn mountain pass so much, though.) I enjoyed SIII's villains a LOT...maybe my favorite group of villains ever. I wish the original creator's wishes had been kept though and that Luc hadn't died at the end (or Sarah, for that matter...she rocked!).

I just love Suikoden for the continuity, which you don't see in FF or really anything else that comes to my mind. In this respect Suiko I and II almost seem like one unit. II benefits greatly from the fact that it expands upon I and has the returning characters, etc. In many ways III feels like it's an outsider or stranger to the first two, but the connections are there in some places so it's not too estranged, and it does all pay off when Luc is your enemy in III

I'm waiting eagerly for them to get around to continuing into the future after their little prequel excursions. Maybe they're making this into a 9-game series, and we'll see 1 more prequel and then 3 more post-SIII timeline games. I can't remember how many True Runes are left to reveal (10ish?), but it should be enough to support 2-3 more games, at least.

Edit: I don't think there's been any info on a US version of the PSP titles

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Pretty fair appraisal...I never played Suikoden 3 because I had the displeasure of hearing the music first and combined with screenshots and recounts of the game (no overworld, the battle system), just kind of wrote it off. Now that I'm getting reintroduced to the series through V, I'll probably pick it and 4 up when I get the chance (I had rented IV and put a couple hours onto it, but that was about the extent...The four person parties and the sailing didn't endear themselves to me that much).

I'll always consider Suikoden 1 and 2 in my top RPG's of all time, simply for the sense of drama they portray, while not sacrificing gameplay depth and likable characters to get the story across (unlike a LOT of other RPG's out there). It feels like anything can happen when playing them and there really was a sense of raw anticipation for what happens next. I mean, I was certain Cleo was going to bite it in the one mission near the end of Suikoden 1 and I was all prepared for another death but...Heh, nothing happened. And it was a real swerve going from bad-ass Luca Blight as the your main enemy to...Jowy in part 2. They really find ways to drive the point home your character is going to hit rock-bottom before they turn things around. Gameplay-wise, they have the main thing I look for in an RPG: Lots of options, which add a lot to the tried-and-true RPG conventions displayed in the battles. So many party combinations, so many ways to spend your money on gear and plenty of stuff to do on the side. It really makes the horrendous 3-person parties in games look more dated than it really is. Six-person parties should seriously be the new standard for turn-based RPG's.

But the strategy sections in both games...Yeah, they suck. At least the ones in 2 are simply storytelling methods, as opposed to gameplay (the same could be said for the duels). The ones in V are so much better from a strategy standpoint. There's actually *gasp* consequences that require you to make decisions. And even panic in a few spots, since the last thing you want to do is lose one of the 108 stars in a tactical battle.

In a sense, I liked 1 and 2 better than 5 up to this point. V's pacing through the first 10 hours or so leaves much to be desired and I was starting to wonder if the team had taken a page from the Xenosaga team, whereas my first 10 hours in 1 and 2 were nothing short of exhilerating (both from a gameplay and story perspective). Thankfully, I'm right at the point where I'm likely to see fewer cutscenes and more awesome trademark Suikoden action (the battle system is already much improved). It's just a matter of how good it gets. Still, when it comes time to replay it (for the good ending...I'm not going to sweat finding EVERYONE via yee olde FAQ the first time around to avoid spoilers. Tis Suikoden tradition), getting through the beginning again to is going to be rough. And the load times displayed in V have ruined many lesser RPG's for me, which lacked the quality content displayed here.

One last note: Gizel Godwin deserves a nomination for being one of the best villains (read: one I can't wait to skewer) ever. Possibly moreso than dear Luca, because even pretending he doesn't do anything bad, he looks and talks like someone I want to smack in the mouth for being a pompous ass. Reminds me of David Xanatos from Gargoyles somewhat.

Hopefully many more good Suikoden games are to come after this one.

Hey, I'm glad you think so.  I've heard more than once that Hugo is the best to start with.  I'm going to have to try that sometime.

No doubt.  Especially when they let you tickle the guy and make him giggle at the beginning of the game.  We can only hope that Tir isn't confused after being raised by tomboy Cleo and effeminate Gremio.

I'm going to have to check out SV.  So much praise means that I can't miss it.