WARNING: the following discussion is arguably somewhat "intellectual". Those of you who wish to avoid such things please skip this thread!

I've been reading History of the Crusades which is a classic of historical literature, and a wonderful read. It's also quite depressing, since basically you have one group of people unreasonably incite hatred for another which more often than not did absolutely nothing. Fortunately, today we live in a very different age, where we can scientifically and logically understand what's really going on... wait, do we? No, not really. Just read this article:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20101002/ap_ … e_theories

And here is the gist of the article, if you don't want to read it all:

"The record shows that al-Qaida agents on a suicide mission hijacked four American passenger planes and crashed them into the World Trade Center towers, the Pentagon, and a field in Pennsylvania, killing nearly 3,000 people. The evidence is immense: witness accounts, audio recordings, video and photographic documentation, exhaustive investigations and claims of responsibility by al-Qaida. Yet every fact and official assertion only feeds into alternative views that become amplified on the Internet, some tinged with anti-Semitism because of the close U.S.-Israeli alliance. They theorize that a knowing U.S. government stood by as the plot unfolded, or that controlled demolitions destroyed the Twin Towers, and the Pentagon was hit by a missile. "All this, of course, would require hundreds if not thousands of people to be in on the plot. It speaks volumes for the determination to believe something," said David Aaronovitch, the British author of "Voodoo Histories: the role of Conspiracy Theory in Modern History." "This kind of theory really does have a big impact in the Middle East," he said. "It gets in the way of thinking seriously about the problems in the area and what should be done." "

A 2006 poll found that 36% of Americans "thought it somewhat or very likely that U.S. officials either participated in the attacks or took no action to stop them". Being leery of the government is one thing, but believing they orchestrated something such as 9/11 attacks despite the insane amount of evidence that points contrary, well it just shows that 36% of Americans are either incredibly gullible or fanatical. Much the same as it was before and during the Crusades. Oh, and it gets worse when you see what Muslim countries think about 9/11, but what I find most bothersome is what Americans think (or lack thereof)!

I guess the real question is - why do people find it so difficult to believe the official story when it would likely be the most comforting option? Have the people that much reason to mistrust the government?

If they do, no matter what happened on 9/11, there's a serious problem.

As for people believing anything, if that were true, why would anyone bother looking beyond the official story which clearly dominates? Wouldn't it be more correct to say that people will not believe anything? People will mistrust anything?

I was going to say...I can think of at least two other threads in STC's history that have blown up into "the US gov did it vs OMG you fool, they didn't". Not seeing anything different in this one. I'm personally believe the US government is more incompetent and divided than they are terroristic (I almost don't think they'd be smart enough to put something like this together, assuming it were true).

I'm more focused on the present and the US trying to blatantly kill or at least devalue the US dollar to create inflation. I follow this in the news and I have trouble explaining it to people who think, "OMG, WTF are you smoking!? The government doesn't want to create inflation". For people who don't follow the stock market...It's going UP on average or bad manufacturing news because they anticipate the Federal Reserve printing a bunch of new money to save our sorry economy if it gets too bad. Meanwhile, you have the reserve basically half and half, openly debating if printing a bunch more money will even help things, plus the chairman leaving everyone hanging by saying "we are prepared to act if things go in the $hitter". Apparently they see deflation as being the worse threat, but forcing the value of assets upwards at the expense of currency might as well be intentionally inflating a giant bubble...POP!

Oh, and since the market is pricing in the Reserve USD devaluation, if it DOESN'T happen, we'll see a crash anyway. Minor footnote.

Jay: you have a point. I guess I should clarify. It appears that people will believe anything as long as it's convenient for them. For example, why do a majority of all (yes ALL) the Muslim countries believe (or at least claim) 9/11 was either committed by the US government or Israel? First of all, that way they do not have to worry that evil was committed in the name of Islam, and they don't have to be sympathetic towards the US. Furthermore, implicate Israel (which they don't like anyway) and you make it all that more attractive to them. Maybe I should have titled the thread "How is it people complete ignore the obvious?" or something like that

What really baffles me is why 36% of Americans believe in these theories? As far as I can tell, and some psychologists would agree, is that it's easier for some people to believe that such a thing is only possible by a very strong and shadowy government. In other words, they don't want to believe the truth, which is that a few Islamic terrorists with nothing more than some simple tools were able to cause so much death and destruction. Furthermore, people who already have an inherent distrust for the government, they have no problem convincing themselves that it was an inside job (completely ignore all the evidence). For those who are anti-Semitic, again, just toss in Israel. Anyway, despite the times and methods I'm reading many similarities between 9/11 and the Crusades! Scary indeed...

Goldfish: true, but I'm still entitled to start a new one even if it's along the same lines as some previous others

I have absolutely no idea what happened on 9/11 and it's not really a discussion I want to get sucked into because it will always come down to this - I don't know. Given the events, it has to be very easy to believe that a group of terrorists could pull this off. All they actually really needed to do was get on a plane and have the most basic knowledge of how to point one in the right direction (not even having to worry about getting it into the air or landing it). Given the rather tiny amount of people involved, it seems easy to believe. Easier than a massive government conspiracy.

I don't have the American perspective but I also would have thought that, while the whole thing was tragic and must have totally shaken the lives of people all over the country, it would be slightly more comforting to have an easy external enemy to believe in (Islamic terrorists) rather than the horrifying idea that your own government, the people who are supposed to represent you, had something to do with it.

Again, it seems easier to go with the official story.

In fact, I can't see what people would really get from going with a conspiracy theory other than nightmares and a sense of total despair.

And yet, as your 36% says, many people believe otherwise.

So the question is why? I don't really have the answer. I think there are a certain small percentage of people who will look for a conspiracy just about anywhere. But there's more to it than that. The official story, how it was all handled, the questions, what didn't come up and what did, just seems to have a stench around it. Like I said, I don't know what happened and I never will and I don't really buy the conspiracy stories. And yet something stinks. For something of this magnitude, people don't like loose ends. And maybe their need to fill in the gaps have people clinging to theories because they at least provide answers.

Maybe their need for closure on the event itself makes that haunting conspiracy idea easier to take.

But one thing came to me while writing this post. I remember at the time, the question came up: why do they hate us? It's a very fair question. Without the topic spiraling off into something else, the US's record since WW2 hasn't exactly been stellar when it comes to international relations - specifically in conflicts. There is a perception that the US has been the bully of the world and people can make a very good argument for that perception.

Going back to the 'why do they hate us?' question, I wonder if that was the first time a huge amount of people in the US actually thought about their place and perception in the world. And what they found wasn't exactly positive.

Picture Michael Douglas in Falling Down. "I'm the bad guy?" I could well be reading much more into it than is actually there but could it be a way of owning that? Or maybe the opposite - people actively distancing themselves from it by making the government, not them, the bad guy.

I don't know.

I do wonder sometimes about the ordinary American's perception of their own government. My own view is skewed because I have only been to East Coast cities and everything else I get is from television so my personal knowledge of America beyond that is very limited. But, even on television, it is pretty consistent that the CIA, for example, are shown to break rules, lie, cover things up, orchestrate conspiracies and do all sorts of pretty reprehensible things. Could be totally far from the truth or could be pretty damn close to reality. Whichever it is, there is an acceptance certainly in fiction that the people pulling the strings in and for the US are not exactly the most trustworthy of guys. It's taken as a given. And it's sometimes even portrayed as a good thing. Is it any wonder there is mistrust?

I don't have your answer. Maybe that 36% are just loons.

Or maybe they're right.

I don't know.

...

Wait, so, are we all agreeing here that the 9/11 conspiracy theories are credible, or bunk?

Jay: the question of "why they hate us" is one that has long been looked at and studied. A Pakistani-born American Muslim who lives in Pakistan, addressed this question briefly, but quite well here:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co … 01806.html

He gave two primary reasons:

1: "The richest, most powerful country in the world attracts the jealousy of others in much the same way that the richest, most powerful man in a small town attracts the jealousy of others. It will come his way no matter how kind, generous or humble he may be."

2: "America has -- often for what seemed good reasons at the time -- intervened to shape the destinies of other countries and then, as a nation, walked away."

Back to the question of 9/11, you say "I have absolutely no idea what happened on 9/11"... REALLY? So then you must agree that you also have no idea what happened during WWII, right? Did the Nazis really bomb London? Do we really know know what happened during the Blitz?" Maybe, Churchill had the RAF bomb London in order to get support for his invasion of Germany! Despite eye-witness accounts, films, pictures, interviews by former-Luftwaffe pilots... etc... why not believe that the Blitz was nothing more than a conspiracy? Does this notion seem asinine, to say the least? Well, there is FAR FAR more direct evidence to point to the obvious conclusion that 9/11 was carried out by al-Qaeda operatives. And yet, people ignore this fact. I think saying that you have no idea what happened on 9/11 is very ignorant. You might as well say 'there is no such thing as history' because it amounts to the same conclusion. You might as well say "maybe JFK wasn't shot, since I wasn't really there... perhaps he's alive and it's just a conspiracy"...

As for why people believe in such conspiracy theories, as I previously mentioned this is well known:

http://www.scientificamerican.com/artic … nspiracies

For specifically the 9/11 conspiracy:

http://www.debunking911.com/

To me, the real question is why are so many people oblivious to the truth? You show them insurmountable, piles and piles of evidence, and they still believe in conclusions drawn by skeptics that are disproved by both science and direct evidence. So here's the thing, I used to think that people all have the capacity to be intelligent. After long thought, I think maybe some people just don't have that capacity. So I believe that it's easier for people to just lump things into "conspiracy" or "well, we'll never really know the truth" and this is easier for them than to actually face reality and have to think about why this happened or what are the consequences. Going back to my History of the Crusades, the same thing was said hundreds of years ago. Of course instead of conspiracy they said "God" and instead of we'll never know the truth they said "the will of God".

That's exactly it. They're jealous. And they've had their destinies 'shaped' (you think they'd be thankful). Though, you should also include that they 'hate freedom'.

Maybe, as it clearly is in my case, it's just ignorance. Plain ol' ignorance. Whatever the answer, it's a very, very good question. You deserve answers.

Avatar, do you believe in God? If not, why? Many people around the world say they've talked with him. Or what about the Fatima visions, or instances of divine healing? Lots of testimony and direct evidence to go by there.

Don't be so quick to jump on Jay's statement like that.

Your statement suggests that people who don't agree with you and who may believe in matters of conspiracy are inherently stupid, and I find that to be pretty ignorant (and more than a little arrogant) in and of itself.

when i was little, my brother and i shared a bedroom... every night i would wake up thinking he was sleeping in a bed above mine,,, turned out that was just bunk...

It's not that I'm so quick to jump on it. Rather it's this notion of "I wasn't there so I don't know what really happened" that bothers me. Is he trying to say that if you don't observe something with your own eyes then you don't know what really happened? So despite THOUSANDS of eye-witnesses, videos, proclamations from al-Qaeda, etc. we're supposed to assume we don't know what happened? In that case we don't really know anything at all do we?

As for "do you believe in God", I view that as a non sequitur. Religion is based on belief, not science and facts. True, some people have claimed to have had visions, divine healing, etc... what does that have to do with hard facts of 9/11? As for people who don't agree with me, well I certainly can understand not agreeing with me (I am an opinionated chap after all)! There's lots of room for discussion and disagreements on most everything. However, if you look at all the facts, and the facts are overwhelming, and you still refuse to believe what is right before your eyes, how do you explain that? I think people who act like that are inherently ignorant, or non-intelligent. Of course, I realize some people might be brainwashed, but still this case is really similar to people who believe that the Earth is 6000 years old. Or how about people who believe the Earth is flat... Do you think if someone today believes the Earth is flat that they're not being ignorant or dumb? Here's a link you might find amusing

http://theflatearthsociety.org/cms/

Anyway, those are my thoughts, and I'm really not trying to be cocky or obnoxious (although I'm sure many think I am, which is fine
To be honest, I'm very disturbed by the fact that over 1/3 of Americans believe in this conspiracy theory. It leads to many problems, which you can read about in some of the links I posted.

Did you read the article? I'm not sure why you're being so sarcastic. Do you have a degree in international relations? Have you traveled in Pakistan? How about the Muslim world? Why do you think you know better than Mohsin Hamid? Seriously, I'm not trying to be mean (or sarcastic here). I don't understand why you think you know better, which is the impression I get from reading your comments which I can only conclude as being snide.

edit: off topic, I wonder if Mike comes up with these jokes himself? 'cause they're funny!

Does that in some way answer your original question? As I pointed out before, it's exactly the opposite of people believing anything. It's people NOT believing. And here it is again - you expect me to take the word of someone else and are incredulous that I wouldn't. Why think when there are others who know better to do it for us? I think it does somehow answer your question.

But, what is probably more important is that I'm beginning to doubt you ever wanted an answer. Is the idea that someone believes differently to you, arrives at a different conclusion, a threat? Or one that challenges you?

And, with that, I'm not sure I really want an answer either.

But, yeah, Mike's jokes are funny. And bizarrely consistent in quality. I can't think of one miss yet.

Do you go to the doctor? If so, why do you listen to him/her when you're sick? Why would a doctor know more than you about illness? The answer is YEARS and YEARS of specialized training. Similarly, someone who studies international relations and has years and years of field experience, knows what's happening better than you and I. I'm not saying that Mohsin Hamid is the final word in everything, but I can't see how you could possibly think you know the situation better than he does? Remember, he LIVES in Pakistan and studies politics. So, that's why I'm surprised you think you know better (about this particular situation of course).

That's quite a few questions. What it comes down to is not whether I know better or not (something you said, not me). In this particular case, it comes down to not basing my entire perception of the truth on a single Washington Post article. Beyond that, it's the same principle. In many cases, I don't know enough to even say I have views. When I say I don't know, I mean exactly that.

Basing what I perceive to be the truth on a single source? Well I guess some people will. But then people will believe anything...

dude ive been posting here over 10 years.. you should recognize my signature reverse-engineered puns by now...
someone always mentions the  answer first, then i work it backwards to create the joke leading up to it..
if i had been writing this stuff down all these years i'd have a book by now,,, which would actually triple the size of my current book collection...

seriously, when was the last time i contributed something of substance to this forum that wasnt a joke, except for maybe in a retro-game thread??

I think a lot of people just don't have the desire.  Especially with the anti-intellectual "movement" that seems to have spread recently.

To be fair, though, some of the people who believe in conspiracy theories have looked at more evidence than say the people who accept the 9-11 story as given without question.  But probably not as wide a range of evidence as they should be.

Honestly, I think there is a certain truth to avatar's statement. I've honestly met people IRL that are so far off into la-la land and caught up in what they assume is right (and in some cases, what they "think" they see) that they just tune out everything else. It's fun dealing with man-haters that swear up and down that us dudes are out to make life a living hell for the softer sex. And then...Hey, you get sick of it and tell them to go #$%& themselves and then they whine to everyone how mean you were to them. I don't think intelligence is so much the issue as keeping more of an open mind is and having the mental capacity to form opinions based on what you see/read/hear as opposed to solely what you assume. At the point you just act on assumptions and you kinda stop being human and just become a silly ape with less hair that can speak human languages.

In that case, however, I think Jay saying, "I don't know" is the proper response here. Me personally, I think the al Queda thing is the case, but while I'm not in favor of conspiracy theories, I can't help thinking "What if they WERE true...that'd be scary".

Consider this example...It's one of my favorite videos because it accurately declared what was happening in the economy back in 2007 and was not really being made public. Cramer comes out and explains it, basically saying "we have armegeddon!" Yes, he's protecting his own interests and the interests of his people, but he was also saying stuff that was happening behind the scenes that the majority of people would have trouble believing, plain as day. Six months later, Bear Stearns was insolvent and had to be acquired. Six months after that, financial armegeddon indeed came to pass and much of it stemmed from the housing crisis, since few believed that the value of housing would cave in. So people that didn't believe him a year earlier and had money in the stock market or had bought houses...Well, the end result wasn't/isn't pretty.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7G9jQUxpRxE

It just makes me think there's always room for a little healthy pessimism.

Avatar, my god question was a sarcastic jab at your torrid relationship with cold hard facts. I'm a little surprised you didn't catch that.

There's nothing wrong with relying so heavily on factual data as long as you at least acknowledge that there's a reasonable probability that we, as common folk simply aren't being told the full story about anything. Question everything. It's not that far outside the realm of believability that we don't know absolutely everything about anything, is it?

I'm not just referring to 9/11 here, but to events in general.

HAPPY NATIONAL CB RADIO DAY!!!  10/4
(disclaimer: not a LHM original. this one originally came from my 6th grade teacher)

Law & Order's Chris Meloni was hospitalized earlier in critical condition after a car accident.. but has now been upgraded to stabler conditon