http://news.yahoo.com/photos/spanish-bu … slideshow/

Absolutely barbaric practice, and I hope the bulls did major damage!

Also, in case you're not familiar with the idiom

http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/Bully+for+you!

I got upset at a friend for posting ignorant stuff like this all over my facebook. You can choose to not approve of bullfighting (I think it's an amazing sport myself), but in all honesty, being happy that the bulls "did damage" to the men participating is just a little bit hypocritical.

How is it hypocritical? People sure are happy when the matador slays the bull, or sticks the bull with needles. I think torturing an animal that way (by the way they usually deprive the bull of food and water before the fight, as well as taunt it to spur it as much as possible) is disgusting. I have no sympathy for people who make a living from needlessly tormenting and killing innocent animals.

For the record, I do eat meat, although I try to purchase local and "humanely" raised. There are lots of issues involved, but I think activities such as bullfighting and fox hunting are utterly barbaric. Here is some background:

http://www.occupyforanimals.org/bullfig … ridas.html

I think any "sport" where the point is to kill an animal should be outlawed because it's f*cking disgusting.
I still won't say I'm "happy" that the bulls did damage, but I certainly don't feel sorry for the matadors either.

This whole argument really reminds me of a "scandal" that was being fought over a rather prominent pitcher a few years ago. The pitcher may have been from Mexico (however I think it was somewhere else) and pictures of him enjoying a cock-fight in his home country emerged. Many people were pretty disgusted... but then there were those who basically wrote it off because it was part of their culture.

But really, this kind of goes back to what I was saying in the J-RPG thread were it really is a matter of interpretation. Do you see it through your culture's eyes of the eyes of their culture.

Nope, sorry, if your culture involves killing animals for entertainment, your culture just sucks.

I do consider killing for food and for sport to be separate things, but from what I understand the bull's meat is eaten after it's killed.  And even though the matador's goal is to kill the animal cleanly without having it suffer, I think it's perfectly fair to cheer for the bull when it never got a choice whether to participate in a death sport.

Agreed - it's unnecessarily barbaric. No matter how it happens, the bull is doomed and will die in that arena in front of a crowd of cheering spectators. I can't understand why anyone would cheer for the death of an innocent animal just because.

That's a lot of cultures you're shooting down just because a certain contingent  happen to enjoy or participate in something you don't particularly approve of (or know too much about, evidently).

Weren't there some talks of Spanish goverment trying to end this barbaric 'sport/culture'? I can see why some of spanish people do want to keep this thing alive, as it is part of their culture. And thus should be respected, but in other hands, it's just f---ing barbaric.

Too bad they're not doing this thing with wasps, that would make everyone cheer. Those things are just assholes.

My parents always taught me not to play with my food

I wonder how many cultures that really are, but I'm not sorry.
I think using "this is our culture" to get away with disgusting shit is an excuse that gets too many free passes.

Also, please enlighten me as to the vast amounts of wisdom you seem to possess on this subject.
I also wonder from where you inferred my evident ignorance considering I only wrote 2 lines or something.

(No hard feelings btw Idolores, you're a good guy in my book )

I believe it's been outlawed in some regions of Spain, but not everywhere.
I seem to recall a friend from Catalonia saying it was banned there.

And like I said above, I don't believe that everything that is part of someone's culture automatically needs to be respected, although I understand that's walking on thin ice.

Alright, let's rock.

First of all, to know bullfighting is to know that the human participants don't often think of their bovine counterparts as sacrificial animals. Many master bullfighters (called matadors in spanish, not sure about what the French or Filipino terms are) regard the bull as a worthy adversary. In a certain way, the entire practice of bullfighting can be seen as a sign of respect to the bull when viewed thusly, since the matadors would have no call to kill an animal that did not prove to be a threat.

Secondly, it should be noted that the bull killed in an event is eaten thereafter, so it's not a wasted death. Traditionally, Americans killed turkeys for Thanksgiving. That practice has changed; at least the bulls get a fighting chance.

I should note that not all matadors are as benevolent as I've made them sound. There exist a number who do give the sport a bad name by vocally and physically taunting the bull before the event begins, or by being unnecessarily rough, but these individuals are the exception, not the rule.

The efficient matador should be able to kill the bull with the least amount of pain possible. It's a persistent myth that matadors are always unnecessarily cruel, but let me tell you, such acts do undercut the artistic merit of the art and should be frowned upon, no question.

Perhaps the biggest argument for bullfighting, at least in a pragmatic sense, is that it generates quite a bit of revenue for the participating countries, particularly Spain. I cannot be certain, but I think it may be Spain's biggest earner in the entertainment biz.

http://xtremesport4u.com/extreme-land-s … ument-for/

This is a decent little read about bullfighting.

I wish to stress that I love animals. I am hugely against activities that are a genuine threat to animals, such as PETA's actions, or the Animal Liberation Front, both of whom give animal lovers everywhere a bad name.

But I also wish to stress that, while I love animals, I generally have no problem with hunting or fishing, and especially not bullfighting, which I perceive as a form of art.

You seriously believe that?! First, the bull is left in a dark room without food and water to disorientate and agitate the bull as much as possible. So, are you saying that depriving an animal of food, water, and light is a sign of respect? After the bull is released, picadores (men on mounted horses) armed with sharp lances stab the bull to inflict the most amount of pain possible. Yeah, that's how I respect an animal, by stabbing it repeatedly, right? Do you also know they stab the bulls in the neck since it is not only painful but prevents the bull from lifting it's head. Then of course there are men running around shooting harpoons at the bull. After the bull has lost large amounts of blood, finally the matador goes out to murder the already weakened, scared, typically helpless animal. Oh yeah, such a threat.

That is a complete non sequitur if I ever heard one. Americans still kill turkeys on Thanksgiving. They are however, not paraded, tortured, and needlessly suffer before being killed for food. This whole notion of the "bull's meat is is not wasted" is simply an excuse made up to try and cover-up the horror that goes on in the arena.

Do you actually understand how bullfighting works? Have you actually seen how horrible the bull is hurt before a matador ever steps foot in the arena? There is absolutely zero benevolence for life here.

http://www.saawinternational.org/bullfighting.htm

In Judaism an animal has to be killed quickly and with as little pain as possible. This is exactly the opposite here. The matador does not confront a bull that has had rest, water, food, and then quickly kills it painlessly so that everyone has some food over a bonfire followed by songs and good beer. If that is your impression, you have no idea what is happening. As I previously mentioned, the bull is ALWAYS attacked by picadores that stab it causing extreme pain. Next it is further attacked by harpoons to cause it more blood loss and extreme pain. Only when the terrified animal is exhausted and has lost lots of blood does the matador come out to finally finish the animal in this utterly barbaric spectacle.

That I have not looked up, but even it is, that in no way excuses this horrid torturing of animals. The slave trade was huge business in Europe and America hundreds of years ago. Does that excuse it? Absolutely not. Money should never ever trump morals.

Hunting, fishing, are completely different and removed from bullfighting. I see bullfighting as the same barbaric treatment as dog fighting. It's cruel, it's amoral, and it should be stopped.

I suggest people check this out: Perhaps bullfighting is not a moral wrong: My talk at the Edinburgh International Book Festival which had somewhat interesting paragraph:

And of course, the next one after that:

Als, the whole blog post was interesting view on the bullfighting. Sure, in the future this part of Spanish culture will probably vanish away.

Why, it almost sounds like it should be expected that the bull pay a price for the privilege of living a full and natural life.

I didn't realize the bull was made to suffer that much before the fight.  Even if the bull is allowed to live a long and peaceful life, I don't see how any honest person wouldn't consider bullfighting, as described in avatar's link, to be a cruel and inhumane practice.  If the bull isn't allowed to start the fight at 100% health, I would consider it unsporting at best.

I know I shouldn't crack a smile considering the subject.... but your sarcasm here is priceless.

Thanks for the link, Razakin. Perhaps my mistake was debating out of passion; that article made all the points I wanted to, but could not, for lack of articulation on my part (typing on this tiny phone doesn't help when I j
had so much more I wanted to say).

Anyway, perhapds it doesn't matter. My original post was meant more to address the hypocrisy inherent in decrying the death of an animal while yelling for blood when the human suffered.

Since the bull is forced into the fight, I dare say it's closer to justice when the bull can take down some of his tormenters.

First off, why do people like to classify themselves as something other than "animals"? Some people may act like vegetables, and sure our bodies have some minerals in them, but we are most definitely animals. In fact, scientists who study animals (including humans) have concluded that we're not more intelligent.

http://phys.org/news/2013-12-humans-sma … perts.html

Anyway, the bull has no choice in the matter. It's tortured, and eventually killed. Animals feel emotions and pain no differently than we do. Once thing I certainly do agree with in the article that Razakin linked to is that the "meat industry" in the US and much of the world in general is horrible. I STRONGLY urge people to watch "Food Inc." which exposes some of the horrors of the food most people eat.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqQVll-MP3I

That said, you can still get local, "humanely" raised food. Secondly, the whole point of "the bull has a good life while most cows only live a couple of years in poor conditions" is non sequitur. It does not have to be one or the other. Animals should have "good lives" and yet do not need to be tortured if they are to be slaughtered for food, and they certainly should not be part of any barbaric blood sport. This author,  Fiske-Harrison, seems completely enamoured with everything Spanish. I would call him a bullfighting apologetic. Although he may be eloquent, ultimately his argument boils down to: "it's tradition". I think that's a horrible argument. He also notes that this is "Spanish culture" and so here's what the famous English writer Noel Coward had to say about it:

“In Barcelona on Sunday I went to my first and last bull fight. I was fortunate enough to secure a seat in the front row – and it was all too lovely. I saw fine horses gored to death and three Bulls baited and finally murdered all in the course of a half an hour, after which I left charmed and awed by the sportsmanship and refinement of the Spanish Nation.”

I do find it bit odd that there's basically two different sides for bullfighting, some seem to be something almost out of horror torture movie, and some more of a artistic sport. I wonder if there's actually differences between the events in Spain. Are some more of trashy ones and classy ones?

And now that I started typing this post, I for some reason made jump into either near-distant future or distant future, where cloning things from cells/dna is working and allowed. I wonder if them people would fight for clone rights, or stem celled bull is ok to put into arena for bullfighting and get a nice t-bone steak from it. Though, stem celled meat products could be good way to combat against, well to be frank, animal torture of meat industry. And make 'real' meat some of a real luxury, animals that have lived their lives free in the farms with great conditions.

And oddly, bullfighting doesn't bother me much as compared to american style of bull riding, I don't know why, but something in that biz bothers me.

Bullfighting, and it's related controversies exist on the same plane as things like abortion or religion. There's those opposed to it those for it, but beneath the surface lies a myriad of things to consider before making an informed decision upon which one stands.

I may disagree (quite vehemently) with avatar andr Amazingu, but I understand where they're coming from; concern for the wellbeing of animals is no fault in a man by any measure, and as long as neither comes to my neighbourhood handing out PETA pamphlets, or spouting ALF rhetoric, then my opinion on that at least will not change.

Guess I'll be canceling my ticket then :S

And what's wrong with quoting Alf!?

Haaa! I kill me!