This was taken from The Magicbox, about an interview done with Phil Harrison:

"He reiterated that the PS2 Dual Shock controller is 'de facto industry standard' for video games. Sony defined the standard for man-to-machine interface for playing videogames."

Which part of the controller is that, exactly?  The button layout that they took from the SNES?  Analog stick technology, which they took from the N64 and Saturn?  Or perhaps the rumble feature, which first appeared for consoles on the N64?  This struck a particular chord with me as of late, since I just got finished playing Kingdom Hearts II and I hope I never have to play an action-y game with the stupid dualshock again.  My hands HURT so much after using that thing compared to as or more intense games on the Gamecube...

I think Nintendo has Sony worried...This comment just kind of looks like it's aimed at them and trying to take momentum away from the Wiimote. Makes sense they'd try to cover up the origins of the DS2's anatomy, but unfortunately, they DID make all of those parts far more mainstream together than Nintendo did.

Sony's going to be in a pretty desperate situation for the next couple of years, especially if the Blu Ray medium doesn't take off and no one buys PS3 because of the price and better competition...Don't expect the mudslinging/lies to let up anytime soon.

I have to say though...I think the Xbox Controller S outclasses the Dual Shock 2 very handily. I played Dynasty Warriors 5 on Xbox and DW4 on PS2 and the controller S just felt better over time, especially in the palms. I'm not a huge fan of the GC controller, but it works well with Sonic Heroes at least.

At least we're away from the era of the Dreamcast controller and the original Xbox controller *shudder*.

From http://revolution.ign.com/articles/710/710760p1.html

When asked what he thought of people saying that Sony stole the PS3's motion-sensing controller idea from Nintendo's next-gen Wii, Harrison replied, "In some way, I understand why people are saying that, but it's a bit dumb, if you can forgive the expression."

...

"When we [Sony] brought PlayStation to the market in 1994, we introduced real-time graphics in 3D for the first time," Harrison commented, apparently dismissing SEGA's Saturn. "When Nintendo released N64 in 1996 and it also used real-time 3D graphics, did we say: 'Nintendo stole our idea!'? No, of course not. Such innovations are made possible because of the combination of technology, cost and manufacturing capacity."

Harrison also clarified that the PS3 controller design was not a last-minute decision, as some suspected.

"We've been working on that [motion sensitive controller] for a long time," he said, "and Nintendo has no doubt also worked on similar, if not identical innovations for a long time -- that's normal. That's technology. The difference between our strategy and everyone else's is that our controller, the PlayStation Dual Analog Controller, is the de-facto standard for videogames.

"I'd estimate that if you include controllers of the same shape from third-parties, more than 400 million were sold world-wide. That means we define the standard for the man-machine interface for games. Now we added an additional dynamic; freedom of motion."

----------------------

Such spin... and lies.  I thought I had read an article that stated most developers admitting they did not know about the "six degrees" controller nonsense.  Wasn't it someone on the Warhawk team that stated it?

Yeah that's right - word from many developers was that E3 (or several days before) was the first time they heard of it. There can be little doubt that Sony slapped it on at the last minute in order to try to remove the Wii's unique selling point.

I can't see many games using it to any useful degree and it doesn't seem worth losing the rumble to me but maybe, in terms of general public, it will do its job in simply making what Nintendo can offer seem less unique. I doubt it though.

That's absolutely ridiculous. The way I see things, the NES controller defined the way we mostly interact with video games, and the other controllers from there on in refined the experience. N64 control with its Rumble Pak and analog stick, the DualShock with two analog sticks and integrated rumble, the XBox control with its built-in nautilus machine for your wrists, et cetera.

Sony's just freaking out because they know they're fighting a losing battle. I was huge into Sony for years, but now I'm just getting more and more pissed off at how they're handling everything that's been going on, especially now that they know the Wii and Wiimote is going to revolutionize the way we interact with mainstream console games once again and they're chucking rocks at everyone in their path instead of doing things the right way through marketing and product demos, etc.

Basically, I just want my DS Lite because the PSP is a paperweight and f--- paying $600 for something that's almost equivalent to an 360 that will play Blu-ray DVDs that nobody will buy. Maybe they'll include a free copy of XMen 3 on Blu-ray as an incentive to buy the system.

Maybe it was the extra shoulder buttons and extended grips. I'm glad that someone else notices how the button layout is ripped straight from the SNES controller.  That's the layout that influenced third-party controller designs and PC controller designs before Playstation showed up.  I have an old Gravis gamepad somewhere.

When you think about it, even dual-stick control (an innovation Sony tends to be credited for) is derived from what was already present on the N64 controller via a combination of the analog stick for movement and the C-buttons for strafing (or vice-versa).

Extended grips were already available with Nintendo's NES Max (and I'm sure there are some more by other companies which could be counted). No idea about the extra shoulder buttons tho.

Really? I feel the exact opposite. I'm comfortable with the Shock, but Gamecube play stings after an hour or two. As for the rest of it, yeah, it's blatant thievery on all counts, but I don't give a tinker's damn as long as it's comfortable to play with. Leave the hand-wringing about copycats to the stockholders, I say.

I think the idea of thievery with this is more than a little hilarious - it's here and all over the net. Are they going to call Nintendo thieves for mirroring the dual analog sticks in their Wii controller?

As Zane has pointed out, every company is contributing in some fashion. Someone will try something, if it works it will usually get added to the next generation. That's called progress. It's like that for cars, for toasters, for just about everything else.

I suppose that, for toasters, I guess people don't have this baffling irrational brand loyalty to get over. I'm with you SonicPanda in that I don't care who started what as long as it works.

They aren't because the concept (of directional buttons/sticks at the same position in each hand, thanks Jay) was used since N64/Virtual Boy. =P It's the Wii classic controller so it needs to be capable to play decently in all the systems' controller layouts (I hope that will include plenty non-Nintendo systems in the end, not just PC-Engine, a couple old Sega systems and the whole Nintendo history). I'm personally just glad the thing has no extended grips as this allows people like me to freely position their hand around the controller and ought to make using the two analog sticks at once more comfortable.

The N64 had two analog sticks?

I've seen more than a few pretentious, over zealous Nintendo supporters pull the "copycat" shit, exactly. I'm not sure what they expect, really. If a company does something that's great, it would be entirely STUPID if the competitors did not follow.

I imagine Nintendo fans realize that Nintendo chose to stick with the catridge for the N64, and lookie wookie, what happened, and what they did for the GC.

"An Analogy", by Zane.

I listen to Chrono Cross a bunch,

And can play some of the songs on my guitar.

That doesn't make me Mitsuda.

But if I were interviewed by a German magazine,

Would I claim to be a Japanese man,

That likes to write acoustic and new age music?

I don't think so.

Sony: you are not Mitsuda.

But I am composing for the next Chrono game,

Once I finish designing the levels and battle system.

Especially if said competitor cannot innovate, but lies like the best of them.  It is still "'copycat' shit" even if it is, as you claim, stupid not to rip it off otherwise.  As was stated, and confirmed by a Warhawk team developer, the batarang PS3 controller was replaced with this "six degrees" PS-Wiitoo controller not all that long before E3 '06.

In spite of the rabid Sony apologists, none of this really matters because Sony has a different set of problems beyond who and what else it can rip-off.  Regardless of what I think of Sony itself I would buy the PS3 for the games, if they had any good ones announced but that's only a matter of time, and if not for its price, which is also a matter of time.

Call me a Sony fanboy, but the last time I read about it, the motion sensors were built into the PS3 controller, as opposed to the Wii needed external sensors.  Or am I mistaken?  This is certainly different enough that one shouldn't claim it's a blatant rip-off.  When Sony decided to actually put a feature to use is less relevant than the fact that it had been under research and development long before the Wii was even announced.

And then again, The N64 only had rumble capability OUTSIDE the controller, and yet again Sony had it built in.  Why is Sony such a bastard for improving on something done by a competitor?

Where exactly does one find these "rabid Sony apologists"?

Those crying 'rip-off' are missing the point. Sony aren't going to compete in terms of motion sensor games - especially given that it was clearly added as a reaction to the Wii. They won't be out to prove that their motion sensor games are better. That's not the point. The point is to try to disrupt public perception of the one selling point of the Wii - the controller. They don't have to prove they can do it better. They don't even have to prove they can use it at all. All they have to do build the perception that the Wii's one unique feature is not actually unique.

Is that any better? Nope. But given their ridiculous price point and a fairly shoddy games line-up they'd be nuts not to try to compete in the one area they excel - marketing.

The sensors aren't really the point... Sony is putting up a lesser-technology compared to what Nintendo is offering (but has offered multiple instances in the past), but it is an attempt at emulating the feature itself and Jay touches on exactly why Sony is doing it---like those pointless 'analog' buttons of theirs it is a marketing thing.

Are you insinuating that Sony is improving on the Wii technology?  Speaking of internal-rumble feature, that 'improvement' has cost Sony quite a bit in court costs from lost cases.  At the least, it would be nice if Sony would improve on the analog buttons aspect on their controller---to me the button is either pushed in or it isn't.

They hang out at the bar across the street from the Chuck-E-Cheese where you find the "pretentious, over zealous Nintendo supporters."

Please understand the motion-sensing in the PS3 controller is very different than that in the Wiimote.  What the PS3 has is "tilt functionality" also seen in Microsoft's old PC controller, Kirby's Tilt 'n Tumble for GBC, and the Wii's nunchuck attachment.  Like the PS3 controller, all of these devices keep the motion-sening stuff internal.  The Wiimote uses an external sensor bar because it is far more precise and can detect spatial positioning, direct pointing, etc.

Am I the only person who is happy to see the rumble feature scrapped?  I liked it on the N64 when it was modest, but it's gotten out of hand lately.  I think the rumbling in today's controllers is too strong and used too frequently.  I almost always turn it off.

Eh, kinda sorta...I haven't seen any instance where the rumbling has proved to be anything more than a gimmick. I mean, it was good for the Star Ocean 2 "giant wave" scene, but that was about the extent of when I can even remember it.

Nah, I liked rumble from the first time I tried it on the N64 and was happy that it was standard this generation. Personally I see dropping it as a step backwards. It's one of those things I barely noticed most of the time but made an overall difference. That's just me.

I was insinuating that building the rumble feature into the controller made it better than forcing it as an add-on.  But of course, that nintendo controlled company has now gone and ruined rumbling controllers for a lot of companies.  Patenting a broad concept instead of something specific is a horrible marketing device and keeps a technology from advancing.  Now I'm sure if any new controllers for Xbox/Sony come out with external motion sensors, they will get their asses sued by Nintendo, regardless of how differently the technology was implemented.

Ha!  Umm... yeah, it's not exactly Nintendo's fault that they paid for the use of the technology (and so did Microsoft, deciding to pay up instead of dragging it into a long court battle like Sony did and losing).

Also, re: XLord007 - I agree that rumble is a gimmick and the first thing I do in every single PS2 game is go to the menu and shut it off.  Given that I use a Wavebird for the Gamecube now, it sort of takes care of itself in those games.

Last - I'm not really overly concerned about people copying controllers - obviously nearly everyone since the SNES era has used that controller design, which in itself is merely additional buttons added to the NES controller.  It's a design that works and (outside of the prongs hurting my hands) don't mind that other companies have adopted it.  The problem I have lies with people from Sony making repeated public statements claiming to have pioneered technology that they didn't. 

It's just one more reason to dislike the company that made my Playstation that doesn't work anymore and my PS2 that doesn't read blue discs any more (and it's not like I don't take good care of game systems... I had a working original NES up until very recently).

Also, I thought MS had a stake in that company, not Nintendo.

I don't care either way for it and I can't think of any game that required rumble.  Didn't Ocarina of Time use it for the fishing or something?

Yeah, if anything, I think that's what really grinds my gears.

I'm sure you know the directions just fine.

Whether they can innovate or not, I don't care. I want them to incorporate whatever is best for the system; even if it's something that was innovated upon by others. Should some media companies choose to distribute their files using BT technology, and others do not, I think everyone would call these "others" incredibly stupid.

Likewise, we've seen how stubbornness does not pay off --- Nintendo with their catridge technology, Sony with ATRAC3 and no-MP3 MD, etc etc. Point is, Nintendo fans can claim a stick by saying that the Nintendo did in some measure, innovate. That I can accept. But to miss the point of the bigger picture -- of providing the best sort of service, technology and interface to consumers regardless whether you thought of the idea or not, is pure stupidity.

Likewise.

Through both generations of Playstations, I have not yet seen Sony provide "the best sort of service, technology, and interface."  To suggest otherwise "is pure stupidity."

Ah, and so you admit it. I am suprised, because it was thrown in jest.

You must be stupid to suppose that I believe Sony gives a two-rats about service and such. And you must be extremely stupid to think that "attempting to emulate the best" is equivalent to "giving the best". Regardless, you are extremely stupid.

It was nothing to admit considering I made the initial joke and since ad hominem attacks are all you are capable of providing.  You lack as much of an argument as you do a point, speaking of which:

Then your post had no point.  Unless of course you would like to provide proof for your last sentence.

I agree that Sony claiming that they invented something they didn't is stupid, but not any more stupid than a copyright governing ALL computer-controlled game controllers, and I quote:

"Immersion Corp. is the holder of US patents 6,275,213 and 6,424,333, covering "haptic feedback," i.e., the use of computer-controlled vibrating motors to provide tactile feedback to a user in a game or other application. Filed in 1995 but not approved until 2000, the patent affects both controllers and games."

Last time I read a round of articles, Nintendo was in bed with Immersion Corp. in one way or another.  Microsoft simply rolled over and paid the licensing fees.  And Sony either refused to pay Immersion for its ridiculous patent or was denied the ability to license, I forget which it is.  Doing my research, the DualShock first went public in 1997, after the "all vibrating game controller" patent was filed, but LONG before the patent was approved.  I'm not fully-briefed on patent law, so I am not sure whether or not Sony was legally liable for damages between 1995 and 2000, or just after the patent was approved.

I agree with that, raynebc.

"Nintendo is another matter. Immersion has never had any dealings with Nintendo, according to Mr. Viegas. Moreover, Nintendo holds their own patents for their rumble devices, and so far there have been no inquiries as to whether these patents are close enough to cause conflict between the two companies (according to some on Slashdot, Nintendo builds the motors differently, so the same result is produced through a different method). Immersion won’t comment on whether or not they’ll pursue future action against Nintendo, but Nintendo has nothing to worry about should the status quo prevail."

http://www.netjak.com/review.php/849

"Redmond, Washington-based Microsoft will pay Immersion of San Jose, Calif., US$20 million for a perpetual patent license and invest $6 million in the company, said Immersion President and Chief Executive Officer Victor Viegas in an interview. The investment gives Microsoft a stake of just under 10 percent in Immersion, he said.

Additionally, as part of the settlement Immersion has the right to take out a $9 million loan from Microsoft and pay that back in shares, Viegas said."

http://www.macworld.com/news/2003/07/29/msimmersion/

It did.  More importanly, however, Ocarina used rumble to help you discover hidden grottoes, and rumble was the only way to find those grottoes.

Yeah, I forgot about that part of the game.  At least one game that forced completist gamers to buy the rumble pack accessory.  That's the kind of thing they should do to encourage people to use rumble, make it a vital part of a game component, instead of just a distraction.

Totally disagree.

Devs should not hold back content to force you to buy an add-on. Rumble should be used to add immersion - explosions, whatever. How it was used in OoT was fine if you had it but punishes those without a rumble pak. Same with WW and its GBA connectivity - removing a map from the main game is not good use of features. It's a cynical way of boosting sales.

I found everything in OoT on my own without walkthroughs without ever using the rumble pack.  Using the rumble pack is most certainly not required.