Someone needs to tell Squeenix that games are supposed to be "fun"!

http://videogames.yahoo.com/feature/new … at/1238418

cheers,

-avatar!

ps This makes for a good Poll: What's the most frustrating boss battle you've encountered?

Worst for me was the damned Blue Dragon in Lunar 2 Complete who had vicious group-wide attacks AND auto-healed every turn.

Someday I'd like the chance to punch Vic's nose for that.

I just read from this site that the guild "fought Pandemonium Warden through twenty of his possible forms, some of which took hours to kill."

My thoughts? If spending 18 hours straight killing an optional boss in an MMO is your top priority, I have no sympathy if you pass out or get ill because of it. Here's a Livejournal post from one of the members that says, "Most members took no breaks at all outside of waiting for weakness to wear if they died. Personally, I never even went to piss (adrenaline covered up everything for me)." Real smart.

Edit: Most frustrating boss? I'd have to say the boss rush near the end of the Suffering: Ties that Bind was the worst and most poorly orchestrated encounter from recent memory. Other ones are Gargoyle from Xenosaga (difficulty spike FTL) and one of the boxing fights from either Ape Escape 2 or 3 (it's been a while). I just remember the camera for that fight being awful and I was repeatedly and unfairly getting dinged because of it. I got so frustrated by the poor design that I took the disc out, snapped a pic of it with the case and immediately put it up on eBay. I guess that's a better way of dealing with frustration than throwing controllers, right?

Man... and I thought some of the battles w/the marks in Final Fantasy XII were bad. Of course, that could be because my neighbor's stepdad sucks at everything.

Going for 2.5 hours on a single game of Lumines (and over 1 million points) is enough of an accomplishment for me.

Dude! You and me both... now that is an achievement.

I'll go ahead and chime in with you two about Lumines.  Once you reached that 1.5 hours +, it was more like a state of zen.  I should really go back and play it....

Bosses I hate:

I could not beat the end boss of Xenogears, so I never saw the ending to one of my favorite game.

I could not beat the end boss of Saga Frontier 2 no matter how many times I tried, so I never saw the ending to a game I should never have bothered playing to begin with.

…as for the boss who took the longest time to defeat, the end boss of Breath of Fire 3 took at least an hour plus all my good items.

I feel like I'm forgetting obvious ones...

Here you go, bud:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QyFg5z5slM8 (part 1)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yOtj7ANoChA (part 2)

Oh man, I feel your pain. This game was such a painful experience; I did manage to defeat the last boss but that was on my third playthrough when my characters were barely good enough to squeek out a win. I'd like to strangle the person who thought it was nessacary to give the boss an attack all life break move. On the positive side, you didn't miss out on anything, the ending - if you could call it that - wasn't much of one. Liked (and still enjoy) the first SaGa Frontier much more.

The hidden bosses in Star Ocean 3 were terrible; using bombs to knock them out of doing there special moves was a horrible chore. Never did beat the last one and I think it's safe to say that's why I never touched the game again. Also, you got to love the AI in those fights: I can't rememeber how many game over screens I saw because the computer was dumb enough to attack when the enemy's fury was at 100% and triggered their Star Guard AAA (Anti-Attack Aura). One minute all your characters are beating the tar out of the enemy and the next they're all lying on the floor in a crippled mass.

I'm a bit conflicted - while 18 hours mindlessly slashing in an MMORPG doesn't sound like much fun to me (or... any amount of time in an MMORPG ), some of my most memorable experiences in single player RPGs come from long, grueling battle won only because of a lot of good moves and a little bit of luck.  I've played games where there were certain fights which were just incredibly tough - long, lop-sided battles - for me those have always made the game more memorable (though I guess one has to be enjoying the game in the first place.)

EDIT: Looking at that article more carefully - if people are getting "physically ill" playing a game, those people have problems.  I don't know if thas really Squeenix's problem as it is these OCD types of gamers

I agree that tough boss battles can be great, if they're fair. When you're fighting something that's cheap, and keeps slaughtering you, then screw that! My favorite boss battles that readily come to mind are:

1)Final Fantasy Tactics: Wiegraf and Belias (one fight right after another, and then a final third fight)! I don't know anyone who thinks this fight is anything but very hard! It takes strategy for sure, but is very memorable, and probably my all-time favorite boss fight.

2)Lunar Eternal Blue: the "final" boss fight against the main villain. SonicPanda hated it, but I loved it! Thought it was a great boss battle! I lost the first time, but then improved my strategy and nailed him the second time

As for cheapest boss battle, what comes to mind is Diablo in Diablo II. D II is a great game for sure, but killing diablo was a bitch and a half! I kept getting slaughtered, and I mean in 2 seconds you were dead! The only way you could beat him is because the damage you dealt was carried over and so when you respawned your previous damage was still there. That was by far the most obnoxious boss battle. In general I don't have patience for such crapola.

As for blaming the players, yeah you're right, no one is forcing them to play. On the other hand, what's the point of making a boss that takes a full 24 hours to beat? Just seems like Squeenix wanted to get some publicity, and they did, but probably not what they expected!

cheers,

-avatar!

This is an MMO we're talking about. 18 hours for a fight shouldn't be that much of a stretch. :P:P

All seriousness, that's pretty whack.

I think MMORPGs often feature this sort of lengthy battles (called raid), although I often hear FFXI and EQ1 is two of the most grinding MMOs. This article seems to deal with Absolute Virtue, but even this is not the most aberrational part of the game. The specific strong enemies have a chance to respawn every 21-24 hours, and usually 50 to 200 people gather in the habitats from morning till night everyday. I'm now really happy with quitting the game about 4 years ago.

The ignorance in this thread is painful.

No. Just...no.

Let me explain some things to you, Zane.

1) The Pandemonium Warden has not been advertised as an "unkillable" mob or anything of that sort.

2) No one had seriously attempted the Warden before. The people that took it on had no idea it would be 18+ hours. Square Enix gave NO warning.

3) the Warden is believed to drop some of the best gear in the game.

4) The Warden, as it was discovered by this group of players, transforms into various high-level mobs from the Aht Urhgan expansion. But again, they didn't know WHEN this would end. With each subsequent killing of a form, it could have been the end. To give up early in (say, 4 hours in) would have been silly, especially since this group of players was "paving the way." What they DIDN'T expect was 18 hours, and there was no way to "pause." I think some players continued to fight the mob in sheer disbelief that it was going on that long. When they all finally passed out (literally), that was it. No one knows how much further this boss fight goes.

5) When you log on to Final Fantasy XI, the following message appears:

"Exploring Vana'diel is a thrilling experience. During your time here, you will be able to talk, join, and adventure with many other individuals in an experience that is unique to online games.
(in caps for emphasis...) THAT BEIND SAID, WE HAVE NO DESIRE TO SEE YOUR REAL LIFE SUFFER AS A CONSEQUENCE. DON'T FORGET YOUR FAMILY, YOUR FRIENDS, YOUR SCHOOL, OR YOUR WORK."

Let me ask you something: how can Square Enix attempt to hold any *shred* of credibility when they say this to us, and then design a mob that cannot be beaten without effectively ruining your life (for the short-term)? Think about this...the fault lies on Square Enix, not the players. It was a poor design choice on their part.

6) As Cedille mentioned, the "18 hour" battle is a quote from Square Enix regarding, not the Warden, but another super-hard mob called "Absolute Virtue." For years, it has not been defeated (except with the help of what Square Enix deemed a "glitch" and quickly removed from the game). Fans and even journalists have continually pressed the team on this, usually getting evasive answers from the dev team (led by the infamous Sage Sundi). In a VERY recent interview (only a few weeks old), it was Sundi himself who finally admitted that the AVERAGE TIME to take down Absolute Virtue would be 18 hours.

If you look, on a scale, of continual time commitments required of various activities with FFXI, you find the scale generally ranges from 30 minutes to 4 hours. That's the amount of time you commit when you sit down, without any major interruption. *4 hours* was generally the max. I have been playing this game for a long time, and I cannot think of anything that requires more than 4 hours (the 21-24hour pop mobs and Dynamis being the 4-hour events).

So to suddenly have two enemies that take 18+ hours to complete? COMPLETELY irresponsible on SE's part. I hope the outrage from the playerbase and the mainstream media helps FFXI's dev team change their minds. I have been fighting this fight since I first discovered Absolute Virtue (long before Sundi's revelation that it would take 18+ hours) as a member of the press, and I will continue to fight.

Don't blame the players. Like I said, they had NO IDEA what they were getting into. And those players have conquered nearly everything else in the game.

Ramza

I don't know, Ramza. I disagree with some of the stuff that you said. I know you enjoy FFXI, so I hope you don't take my comments personally.

SE didn't give warning that it would take that long, but these people played themselves sick. Don't get me wrong. I love video games, man - they're a huge part of my life, always have been, and always will be. But there has to be a line somewhere. Each and every one of those players had the ability to log off at any time. Despite the fact that...

If this is motivation to play for eighteen hours, well, that motivation is way beyond me (and this is coming from someone who dodged 200 successive bolts in the Thunder Plains). Is any item drop, regardless of rarity, really worth risking your health or harm to any part of your body?

One could put blame on SE for such a bad design choice, but I'm going to put the blame on the people that spent 18 hours straight playing against this boss and then had to deal with some physical complications or feelings of illness because of it. Square Enix didn't put a gun to anyone's head and tell them to play for that long straight. Maybe I'm just being a dick, but I can not fathom how someone could spend that much time fighting one boss with the mere chance that it'll drop a rare item. Like I said, I friggin' love video games, but I also love feeling healthy and I make sure that I don't neglect my body or its needs when I play. Video games are awesome, but, I don't know, peeing every once in a while is even more awesome. Eating and giving your body the energy that it needs is awesome. Sleeping and replenishing your body is awesome!

Again, this was the choice of the players. Each and every one of us can put down the controller at any time and walk away, regardless of the game, console, or situation - but these players chose not to. Now that is not Square Enix's fault.

Preach on, Brother Zane. Tired of people blaming the man for their own shit.

There's also peer pressure involved. You're there with a group of "others" you know through the net, that have supported you through the game ... and so it takes a collective "f--- it" to leave, otherwise people stay on.

If you haven't played an MMO you don't understand. There's a psychological factor involved. SE knows that. All major MMO developers know it. They have a responsibility to do the right thing. SE did the wrong thing.

But yes, the people who "played themselves sick" were also being irresponsible. It's not SE's fault they got sick, it's their fault. But look again to SE's statement that we players see EACH TIME we log on the game, and ask yourself, HOW can SE reconcile that statement with "oh yeah this'll take a large group of ppl 18+ hrs to finish LOL"

Ramza

Edit:

This is no different than any other argument surrounding any kind of addiction... I'd say this is pretty close to something like VLT addiction.  Who's more to blame?  Squeenix or the players?  There is no clear answer.

I was about to say the same thing.  I smoke cigarettes and I know they're bad but I don't blame the tobacco companies for supplying them to me.  I know the risks and I smoke anyway.  It's the same thing with the 18 hour battle if you ask me.  Example: If you choose to keep your bladder full of urine for 18 hours straight without emptying it and then let's say you get bladder cancer, an infection, or even die.. that's your fault.  Anyone who would blame Square Enix for that is a loony tune.

-Mike

I'm curious in the reaction they would have recieved had they actually defeated the boss and still had the same outcome (getting sick).

Also what kind of physical condition do these people have to be in to get sick from sitting in front of a computer for 18hrs!? I've worked longer than that doing physical labor and not felt physically ill (although I do feel really fatigued).

you are a terrible person

Adoru never beat one of his "favorite" games, so I wanted him to be able to enjoy the ending movies. How does that make me a terrible person?

That old Square company logo sure brings me back.  Looks so much better than the Square Enix one.

Konami should never have changed theirs, either.

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/2008_ … s_Monsters

The bad publicity and complaining of players made a difference.

Thanks to kids that hold their pee for 18 hours, SE decided to "reduce the difficulty" (read: amount of time) required to take down the 2 super-hard NMs (Absolute Virtue, Pandemonium Warden) as well as the NM you have to kill in order to make AV spawn (Jailer of Love).

Kudos to the players!

paradox!

Word... if that wasn't possible, the least they should have done is combined the "E"s in the Squeenix logo type.

Squarenix? (Pronounced "Square-Nix")?

Yeah, I miss Square and Konami's old logos...

Well, I'm sure everyone knows how MMOs are these days...play while sitting on the toilet, and have a sub sandwich and a tall glass of water sitting on the counter next to you...

Aren't time-sucking grinds the whole reason that people play MMORPGS?  Square's just giving players more of what they want.

Yeah, but you're doing it together with REAL PEOPLE!

I think MMO addicts have no alternative but to do grinding contents because there is otherwise little to do, not because grinding is intrinsically fun (it sometime is, but for the most part, it's outpaced by tediousness and laboriousness). They virtually 'live' in the game, and like we still have to go on living no matter how boring and tiring it gets, they also have to go on playing the game unless they quit it, which is sorta equivalent to a suicide. I might be overstating the negative side a bit, but based on my two year experience (I even belonged to one of the earliest Raid guilds), I think I'm not so far from the case with most MMO addicts.

As for FFXI, what's worse, even players who don't bother to get über gears often are forced to waste their time in forming a group, leveling, farming, moving to somewhere, or even following the linear stories. I think this is why FFXI is often regarded as among the most time-consuming and grinding MMO games ever, despite its FINAL FANTASY title.

I hope a next FF MMORPG will be fixed in this regard, and please, have Tanioka as the composer!

A time-sucking grind can usually be started and stopped as the player sees fit. An 18 hour boss battle cannot be. This is the key difference. That and, most FFXI players I know don't play for more than 4 hours in one sitting.

Ramza

Slash, slash, slash, slash, item heal, slash, slash, slash [repeat infinitum]

I don't actually play them myself, but I've understood from what people say is that gameplay in an MMO is just means to an end, not the end itself. That is, investing the time necessary to topple Deus Ex Boss-o'-Doom isn't the point, but rather the trinket proving you did and the reputation that comes from showing it off in-game.