Soundtrack Central The best classic game music and more

    Pages:
  • 1
  • 2

GoldfishX Sep 4, 2014

Reposting this...I think you only saw those four words:

"-The sad thing is, some people use it for their own benefit and I feel that MAY be the case with these two individuals. People like this are usually manipulative sociopaths and get off on this sort of thing. They DO exist. I hope I'm wrong on this. If they are legit, I hope they arrest and convict whoever is doing it. If they produce a police report, I will happily eat my words. But as of now, I have my skepticism."

And yes, I saw those tweets from Anita, which is why I posted: "

"-When it happens and you feel your life is in danger, you call the police and you DON'T post it on social media as both Zoe and Anita did. You file a police report and that report is then public."

Please explain what part of these you are having trouble understanding.

vert1 Sep 4, 2014 (edited Sep 4, 2014)

That's what you all are mostly talking about...  Discovering game journalism is garbage is such old news. I've written about it here in posts before and they were generally ignored or downplayed. If you clicked the article I linked on this thread's first page it had more important clickable links: http://insomnia.ac/commentary/the_video … ws_racket/

The interesting thing is that a big company like Nintendo got away from feeding companies their game information (the corruption) and went directly to gamers.

This shit is really irritating to go on in more than one thread. If someone starts a thread about improving Mario mechanics don't expect that many responses as someone who starts a thread about "Mario still saving the princess is sexist"; you will see at least 4 times more thread pages because having an opinion on that topic requires minimum effort. That thread will be decoded as thousands of threads as "f--- yous" and "no. f--- you".

absuplendous Sep 4, 2014

Where to start?

-"DON'T post to the public... the police report is public"
-"I will completely ignore her stated reason for posting publicly"
-"I won't state why I assert why you don't post that publicly"
-"In response to Quinn/Sarkeesian's publicized death threats, I've outlined the makeup of 'manipulative sociopaths' who DO exist and get off on death threats... how could you possibly construe that as pertaining to Quinn/Sarkeesian?"
-"I will not confirm or deny what I was insinuating when I said 'if they are legit,' just pretend you have trouble understanding"

Intellicat Sep 4, 2014

vert1 wrote:

Haven't seen this posted here but this is the picture that perfectly defines game journalism: http://i.imgur.com/kLHUo.png

I love that picture. He just looks so happy to be there! :3

GoldfishX Sep 4, 2014 (edited Sep 4, 2014)

absuplendous wrote:

Where to start?

-"DON'T post to the public... the police report is public"
-"I will completely ignore her stated reason for posting publicly"
-"I won't state why I assert why you don't post that publicly"
-"In response to Quinn/Sarkeesian's publicized death threats, I've outlined the makeup of 'manipulative sociopaths' who DO exist and get off on death threats... how could you possibly construe that as pertaining to Quinn/Sarkeesian?"
-"I will not confirm or deny what I was insinuating when I said 'if they are legit,' just pretend you have trouble understanding"

If your life is in danger, you go to the police and file a report (which is then available publicly, which SOMEONE would have posted by now). You don't post it on social media because, in theory, you're scared for your life. The police then track down the offending party and bring them to justice.

"If they are legit" = alluding to the fact that 99%-100% of twitter death threats are fakes. http://www.slate.com/blogs/future_tense … _them.html

Anything else I can assist you with today, sir?

Vert, I've been saying it for years. How much effort does it take Game Informer to give every high profile game it reviews at least an 8/10?

absuplendous Sep 4, 2014 (edited Sep 4, 2014)

So now you're saying the death threats (including the ones that reveal they know exactly where they and their families live) just shouldn't be taken seriously, at all, because internet. And that until someone produces a police report, we should assume that Sarkeesian wasn't scared for her life, because... why? She also knew they just shouldn't be taken seriously?

You are going to exceedingly great lengths not only to excuse death threats, but criticize the recipient's reaction to them, and it's really disturbing.

Edit: By the way, that article you linked didn't give a statistic on how many Twitter death threats are "fakes," but I'm sure you're basing your 99-100% (100%, really) "fact" on something credible. It's probably high, though, which is why you're right about how someone saying "I'm going to murder you and your parents" is something we should accept as harmless online banter.

Ashley Winchester Sep 4, 2014

Not to finger anyone directly... but seeing/watching a topic spiral out of control like this is something I'd expect to see on GameFAQs, not here.

Seriously, every time I want to lose some faith in "gamers" having SOME life beyond their hobby - or see how the people that have written the articles we're discussing about above have somewhat of a point - i can just go there.

That being said... I'm kind of surprised the crap about Phil Fish hasn't made it's way into this cluster****.

GoldfishX Sep 4, 2014

I said she should call the cops and do a police report. What else do you want me to say? If someone levied a death threat against me, that's what I would do (I would want the report so there's something official floating around). Maybe that's just me...

Ashley, I think most people agreed Phil Fish was a nutjob to begin with and stopped caring about him early on (everyone I've talked to IRL thinks that, although there's minor divisiveness over Zoe and Anita). Like I've been telling people, Zoe and Anita don't interest me either, my issue was with the whole groupthink assault on being a gamer (but the events from those people lead up to the assault).

absuplendous Sep 4, 2014

You said more than just that, and that's where it got weird.

She said she did contact the police, and you're saying unless concrete proof emerges, we shouldn't rule out that she didn't. Why should anyone take your assertion over hers? Why would anyone make that assertion?

GoldfishX Sep 5, 2014

Police reports are public. There would be a record of it (which someone on Zoe or Anita's side would have produced by now). Anytime there is contact with the police, there is a report. Even for much less serious incidents that what is being discussed (minor car accidents for example). I'm not making an assertion, I'm telling you how the legal system works.

absuplendous Sep 5, 2014

Alright, so we'll go ahead and assume that no police report was filed. What conclusion would you like us to draw from this? I assume you brought up all of this for a reason.

GoldfishX Sep 5, 2014

Just that I get pissed off at bad gaming journalism, especially when they (as a group) try to declare the idea of a "gamer" as dead, outdated and even outright offensive (more confused than pissed off when I first saw it). I have been following the shitstorm on twitter and yes, some of the gamergate supporters are using it as an excuse to act like idiots to some of the parties involved, but there's a lot of civil discussion going on.

absuplendous Sep 5, 2014

How are we supposed to get any that from "I don't think Sarkeesian really contacted the police?" That has nothing to do with journalism or attacking the identify of "gamers." You aren't discussing her journalistic integrity. You stopped citing her actual professional work a long time ago in favor of speculating what kind of person she is based on how she's reacted to personal attacks. You're insinuating she's a liar and/or a sociopath while dismissing the threats made against her as harmless. You are using gamergate as an excuse to assassinate someone's character--not their professional scruples--and you're not even trying to make a feasible connection between the two.

GoldfishX Sep 5, 2014

I said she should call the cops and do a police report. What else do you want me to say?

And yes, I did attack her journalistic integrity (posts #6 and #11) as well as questioned the gaming media for not taking a more aggressive stance against her, but then everyone started whining about how I'm somehow condoning harassment, so I've been repeating myself over and over about how she should have filed a police report again all night in this Firefox window while watching old Yu Yu Hakusho episodes in another window and NFL Opening Night on TV.

I'm flattered you have this magical fixation on trying to over-analyze everything I type (what word did I use to describe that before...Oh right, patronizing), but it's sad when I can almost answer everything by literally cutting and pasting the same response over and over again. I had to force this into your head back in the Nintendo health thread: I'M not the topic of discussion. Feel free to actually contribute something of value to the actual topic(s) if you want to keep going. Even if its a radical feminist "kill all men" stance, it would be something different at this point. Endless critiques of me are probably going to get you another cut and paste job, until I get bored and stop responding.

Amazingu Sep 5, 2014

GoldfishX wrote:

And yes, I did attack her journalistic integrity (posts #6 and #11) as well as questioned the gaming media for not taking a more aggressive stance against her, but then everyone started whining about how I'm somehow condoning harassment, so I've been repeating myself over and over about how she should have filed a police report again all night in this Firefox window while watching old Yu Yu Hakusho episodes in another window and NFL Opening Night on TV.

See, that's what you're doing wrong here, Goldfish.
You're using bloody Firefox wink

But seriously, although I do generally agree more with Jay, one of the things that has definitely been irking me about this whole situation is that it seems it's impossible to criticize anyone in the feminist camp without instantly being lumped in with all of the misogynist assholes. It's like there's no middle ground here.

It's like it's not possible to be AND a feminist AND still disagree with how Sarkeesian and Alexander et al choose to make their points, because they shout the loudest, so they must obviously be right?

GoldfishX Sep 5, 2014

Amazingu, thank you for breaking the monotony. I love my Firefox though.

Here's the thing: I want more women in gaming. I want more female characters. I hate looking at the next gritty white male protagonist in the next big blockbuster game, because they're boring (not that I play much in the way of modern games anyway). I hate RPG's that use the token female healer mechanic. What I don't want to hear is someone with a far left agenda from outside the world of gaming taking a paid, shallow look at some Let's Play videos and critiquing gaming and gamers as angry white perpetually horny males that are out to degrade women. And the absolute last thing I want is a corrupt gaming media playing up to this stuff.

raynebc Sep 5, 2014

This gamergate nonsense doesn't interest me, but to add my two cents to this thread, Firefox is my favorite web browser.

Jay Sep 5, 2014

GoldfishX wrote:

The current issue isn't sexism though.

Anita Sarkeesian's videos are about nothing else. And she address your little quote quite nicely on her tumblr:  http://tmblr.co/ZI8ZTx1Px_5da

GoldfishX wrote:

Here's the thing: I want more women in gaming. I want more female characters. I hate looking at the next gritty white male protagonist in the next big blockbuster game, because they're boring (not that I play much in the way of modern games anyway). I hate RPG's that use the token female healer mechanic. What I don't want to hear is someone with a far left agenda from outside the world of gaming taking a paid, shallow look at some Let's Play videos and critiquing gaming and gamers as angry white perpetually horny males that are out to degrade women. And the absolute last thing I want is a corrupt gaming media playing up to this stuff.

So you want EXACTLY what Anita Sarkeesian wants, you just don't want to hear it from Anita Sarkeesian? Let's imagine just for a very fictional moment that it's true, is because she got paid? So that rules out any paid journalist who could cover it. Because she looked at videos? Hmm... really? No, you cover it nicely here in the later part of this paragraph. It's about you feeling threatened and the reaction to that.

Amazingu Sep 5, 2014

Jay wrote:

So you want EXACTLY what Anita Sarkeesian wants, you just don't want to hear it from Anita Sarkeesian?

Do you really find that so hard to grasp?

I agree with what she's trying to do too, but I find most of her videos to be painted with VERY broad strokes, often deliberately misrepresenting situations.
Just because she's trying to do good, doesn't mean she's actually doing it well.

vert1 Sep 5, 2014 (edited Sep 5, 2014)

I just watched her Female Tropes video and what she is saying is easy enough to believe in this age of the feminization of men by higher men who want to maintain their dominant status. The problem is that when you look critically at women as equal to men things falls apart. I certainly am not trying to be mean-spirited with the analysis of women. You can go to a higher authority like Nietzsche to figure these things out. Our society no longer is allowed to define what we find masculine or feminine without fear of ridicule of mischaracterization of the sexes. This was something that I allowed myself to stay silent on in the other thread in preparation of launching a thread on "What is a man? What is a woman?". Now is the time to fully delve into that topic.

Fushou fuzui- "The husband leads, the wife follows" (In Japan, considered the secret to a happy marriage).
Naijo no kou- "With the wife's help" (Behind every man there's a good woman)

Now in Japan women were to be submissive, yet strong (trained for combat). This was not the case with European women. Men as I asserted in the other thread are to be in charge. <<Testosterone>>. I posted this question before in that same popular thread and no one answered it honestly:

How many activities in the world at the highest level are women ranked higher than men? Which sex ranks higher in fields such as cooking, chess, painting, athletics, even "measly" ones like videogames in the world? Men.

This is going to be a lot of reading but it is all very beneficial. This is from Distinction: A Social Critique of the Judgement of Taste:

At a deeper level, the whole body schema, in particular the physical approach to the act of eating, governs the selection of certain foods. For example, in the working classes, fish tends to be regarded as an unsuitable food for men, not only because it is a light food, insufficiently ‘filling’, which would only be cooked for health reasons, i.e., for invalids and children, but also because, like fruit (except bananas) it is one of the ‘fiddly things which a man’s hands cannot cope with and which make him childlike (the woman, adopting a maternal role, as in all similar cases, will prepare the fish on the plate or peel the pear); but above all, it is because fish has to be eaten in a way which totally contradicts the masculine way of eating, that is, with restraint, in small mouthfuls, chewed gently, with the front of the mouth, on the tips of the teeth (because of the bones). The whole masculine identity—what is called virility—is involved in these two ways of eating, nibbling and picking, as befits a woman, or with whole-hearted gulps and mouthfuls, just as it is involved in the two (perfectly homologous) ways of talking, with the front of the mouth or the whole mouth, especially the back of the mouth, the throat (in accordance with the opposition, noted in an earlier study, between the manners symbolized by la bouche and la guile).
This opposition can be found in each of the uses of the body, especially in the most insignificant-looking ones, which, as such, are predisposed to serve as ‘memory joggers’ charged with the group’s deepest values, its fundamental beliefs. It would be easy to show, for example, that Kleenex tissues, which have to be used delicately, with a little sniff from the tip of the nose, are to the big cotton handkerchief, which is blown into sharply and loudly, with the eyes closed and the nose held tightly, as repressed laughter is to a belly laugh, with wrinkled nose, wide-open mouth and deep breathing (‘doubled up with laughter’), as if to amplify to the utmost an experience which will not suffer containment, not least because it has to be shared, and therefore clearly manifested for the benefit of others.
    And the practical philosophy of the male body as a sort of power, big and strong, with enormous, imperative, brutal needs, which is asserted in every male posture, especially when eating, is also the principle of the division of foods between the sexes, a division which both sexes recognize in their practices and their language. It behooves a man to drink and eat more, and to eat and drink stronger things. Thus, men will have two rounds of aperitifs (more on special occasions), big ones in big glasses (the success of Ricard or Pernod is no doubt partly due to its being a drink both strong and copious—not a dainty ‘thimbleful’), and they leave the tit-bits (savoury biscuits, peanuts) to the children and the women, who have a small measure (not enough to ‘get tipsy’) of homemade aperitif (for which they swap recipes). Similarly, among the hors d’oeuvres, the charcuterie is more for the men, and later the cheese, especially if it is strong, whereas the crudités (raw vegetables) are more for the women, like the salad; and these affinities are marked by taking a second helping or sharing what is left over. Meat, the nourishing food par excellence, strong and strong-making, giving vigour, blood, and health, is the dish for the men, who take a second helping, whereas the women are satisfied with a small portion. It is not that they are stinting themselves; they really don’t want what others might need, especially the men, the natural meat-eaters, and they derive a sort of authority from what they do not see as a privation. Besides, they don’t have a taste for men’s food, which is reputed to be harmful when eaten to excess (for example, a surfeit of meat can ‘turn the blood’, over-excite, bring you out in spots etc.) and may even arouse a sort of disgust.
    Strictly biological differences are underlined and symbolically accentuated by differences in bearing, differences in gesture, posture and behavior which express a whole relationship to the social world. To these are added all the deliberate modifications of appearance, especially by use of the set of marks—cosmetic (hairstyle, make-up, beard, moustache, whiskers etc.) or vestimentary—which, because they depend on the economic and cultural means that can be invested in them, function as social markers deriving their meaning and value from their position in the system of distinctive which they constitute and which is itself homologous with the system of social positions. The sign-bearing, sign-wearing body is also a producer of signs which are physically marked by the relationship to the body: thus the valorization of virility, expressed in a use of the mouth or a pitch of the voice, can determine the whole of working-class pronunciation. The body, a social product which is the only tangible manifestation of the ‘person’, is commonly perceived as the most natural expression of innermost nature. There are no merely ‘physical’ facial signs; the colour and thickness of lipstick, or expressions, as well as the shape of the face or the mouth, are immediately read as indices of a ‘moral’ physiognomy, socially characterized, i.e., of a ‘vulgar’ or ‘distinguished’ mind, naturally ‘natural’ or naturally ‘cultivated’. The signs constituting the perceived body, cultural products which differentiate groups by their degree of culture, that is, their distance from nature, seem grounded in nature. The legitimate use of the body is spontaneously perceived as an index of moral uprightness, so that its opposite, a ‘natural’ body, is seen as an index of laisser-aller (‘letting oneself go’), a culpable surrender to facility.
    Thus one can begin to map out a universe of class bodies, which (biological accidents apart) tends to reproduce in its specific logic the universe of the social structure. It is no accident that bodily properties are perceived through social systems of classification which are not independent of the distribution of these properties among the social classes. The prevailing taxonomies tend to rank and contrast the properties most frequent among the dominant (i.e., the rarest ones) and those most frequent among the dominated. The social representation of his body which each agent has to reckon with, from the beginning, in order to build up his subjective image of his body and his bodily hexis, is thus principle as the social products to which it is applied. Thus, bodies would have every likelihood of receiving a value strictly corresponding to the positions of their owners in the distribution of the other fundamental properties—but for the fact that the logic of social heredity sometimes endows those least endowed in all other respects with the rarest bodily properties, such as beauty (sometimes ‘fatally’ attractive, because it threatens the other hierarchies), and, conversely, sometimes denies the ‘high and mighty’ the bodily attributes of their position, such as height or beauty.

What is happening now is the desire to substitute the word "woman" for the word "man" in all of that and everything else.

Do you ever wonder why women aren't as passionate as men about games? (You didn't read to the bottom of the first insomnia article I posted then.) They obviously don't care about them as passionately as men to line up in stores to play them (see Smash4 lines). It is highly doubtful that women will ever overtake the fat, pimply loser as the stereotypical image of a gamer.

Also, wonder why music forums (i.e. this one about game soundtracks) are predominantly male?:

#24 Not Knowing The Name Of Songs They Like

A common frustration for men goes like this: they hear a song on the radio a few times and like it, but the DJ never mentions its name or who recorded it. They're further frustrated that by the time they're in a position to look it up they've forgotten about it.

Women don't share this experience. In fact, a woman may have heard and enjoyed a song so much that when it comes on the radio she can accurately sing every word, but she won't care what the name of it is. If you happen to know you can tell her and she may find that mildly interesting, but that'll be it.

She prefers the spontaneity of having something pleasurable simply present itself. She's in the moment and it just happens. Yes, the song will leave regular radio rotation over time, but it will be replaced by another that she likes. Being in the moment means not clinging to it.

Other telling things about women's likes: #23 Their Boyfriends’ Hobbies and #10 Not Making Decisions
From: http://www.thingswomenlike.com

Dancing could be seen as entirely misogynistic. Men lead, women follow. I've yet to see women berate dancing.

Jay Sep 5, 2014

Yes, I do find that very hard to grasp. GoldfishX provides a prime example. He has said in the above post that he wants more women in gaming and appears to agree with some points. And yet he began by using several things he disagreed with to dismiss EVERYTHING she says. Funnily enough, one of those things was "cherry picking" too (would we be right to dismiss everything GoldfishX says on that basis?). If someone makes 10 points and 1 of them is rubbish, that's still 9 good points.

But what is happening here is a total unwillingness to listen. It is a defensive stance grasping for reasons to dismiss anything and looking to counterattack the person making the points. Male gamer feels threatened, male gamer acts out.

Her videos are painted with broad strokes, absolutely. She's making points and illustrating those points. I haven't personally seen deliberate misrepresentation in her videos but I haven't played all her examples. I've seen games I've played that have been represented accurately. So if some haven't (examples?) those other points still stand. But no.

GoldfishX Sep 5, 2014

Jay wrote:
GoldfishX wrote:

The current issue isn't sexism though.

Anita Sarkeesian's videos are about nothing else. And she address your little quote quite nicely on her tumblr:  http://tmblr.co/ZI8ZTx1Px_5da

I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT ANITA SARKEESIAN AND GAMERGATE IS NOT ABOUT ANITA SARKEESIAN OR WOMEN IN GAMING! IT IS ABOUT GAMING JOURNALISM LASHING OUT AT GAMERS FOR WHATEVER BULLSHIT AGENDA THEY MIGHT HAVE!

WHAT PART OF THAT DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND!? I'M PUTTING IT IN CAPS BECAUSE I'M TIRED OF SAYING IT IN THIS GODDAMN THREAD!

Jay wrote:

So you want EXACTLY what Anita Sarkeesian wants, you just don't want to hear it from Anita Sarkeesian? Let's imagine just for a very fictional moment that it's true, is because she got paid? So that rules out any paid journalist who could cover it. Because she looked at videos? Hmm... really? No, you cover it nicely here in the later part of this paragraph. It's about you feeling threatened and the reaction to that.

I just tried to offer a neutral and unbiased understanding about a relatively sensitive topic and you come back with this gem...For the love of god, learn the difference between a centrist point of view (what I tried to offer) and an agenda-ridden far-left point of view (Anita's lopsided dreck) before you try to put words in my mouth. Ironically though, you could say I do feel slightly threatened: I do NOT want that type of extremist view influencing a damn thing in videogames!

Recap for those that missed it: Anita comes from outside the gaming world and has no business critiquing it, she used STOLEN footage and collected a cool $160,000 to do it all with. A decent recording set-up costs $1000-$2000 tops, but she didn't even do that. Maybe she was afraid she'd actually have to *gasp* play the games. She is a FRAUD! And yes, all of that is why I am skeptical about her death threats.

I want to see women in gaming improve, but it's not my first and foremost agenda either. I'm really starting to think you have an agenda of your own and I'm insulting your hero here.

I feel like I am seriously talking to a brick wall.

To anyone else in this thread: Talk about gaming journalism if you quote or address me. That is what I came into this thread to discuss and what I have been following. That is my agenda.

GoldfishX Sep 5, 2014

Jay wrote:

But what is happening here is a total unwillingness to listen.

Brilliant conclusion, I was thinking the same thing about you.

Jay Sep 5, 2014 (edited Sep 5, 2014)

Your shouty caps don't quite reconcile with your second post in this thread. But yes, I can see you did start with the games journalism, which was covering and reacting to the sexism issues of course. To focus on one and not the other would be cherry picking and I think we think that is bad.

I very much do have an agenda of my own. We all do. For me personally, I don't think that women should be marginalised, underrepresented or poorly represented in games and I believe that it's not enough to say that while simultaneously dismissing any women who speaks up on the matter. My agenda includes furthering the idea we can do better in games, games should not be a reactionary elitist and sexist bubble, games (and we) should all be open to criticism and viewpoints and we should absolutely open to improvements which require recognising areas that can be improved and also require embracing change.

So yes, I have an agenda.

Jay Sep 5, 2014

That's a good article. Thing is, I think a lot of 'less civil' people were looking for this and jumped on it and it is, for a large part, what made GamerGate GamerGate. Corruption in gaming journalism has been a known issue for years and we've had some ridiculous things like the fairly recent Doritos incident. But what does it take to kick off a shitstorm? The idea that a woman might have benefited from it. I don't think that can possibly be unrelated, especially when it got personal almost immediately. And when men and women sleep together and people don't like that, who is the problem? That Zoe Quinn herself was the target of all this speaks volumes. That Sarkeesian gets dragged into the same discussion even though the only connection is that she's a woman looking out for women then just packages it all nicely together.

So yes, some people (few perhaps) may well have genuine concerns and those concerns are valid. But this is a platform for the less civil mentioned in that article and has been from day one.

Adam Corn Sep 5, 2014 (edited Sep 5, 2014)

I'll admit I've only read a couple articles on the subject and don't intend to read too many more, as there are more important things in the world to read about (though there are some important social issues at play).  That said, Goldfish, whether out of frustration or genuine belief you've said a couple things that honestly make it hard to take the rest of your arguments seriously.

GoldfishX wrote:

I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT ANITA SARKEESIAN AND GAMERGATE IS NOT ABOUT ANITA SARKEESIAN OR WOMEN IN GAMING! IT IS ABOUT GAMING JOURNALISM LASHING OUT AT GAMERS FOR WHATEVER BULLSHIT AGENDA THEY MIGHT HAVE!

You can say what you are or aren't addressing but come on, this issue as it has unfolded in the community is clearly about sexism and women in gaming.  Sure, journalistic integrity is one part of it, but given the reaction these women (and some of their supporters) have received you can't seriously tell me sexism is not an issue here?  Is there some other term besides GamerGate that people are supposed to use to address those issues stemming from the very same incident?

As Jay mentions, if corruption in gaming journalism is such a long-standing problem, why is it only when a female developer allegedly uses journalists to her advantage - and does it in a way that male developers generally can't - that certain gamers get so irate over it?

GoldfishX wrote:

Anita comes from outside the gaming world and has no business critiquing it

Please tell me that was ambiguously written and that you're not saying what it sounds like - that "nobody outside the gaming community has any business critiquing it."  Because if that is what you're saying I think a look at the media and various groups and societies throughout history will show how misguided and potentially even dangerous that type of thinking can be.

absuplendous Sep 5, 2014

And, as I'm sure I've said before, Goldfish, if you expect that what you have to say shouldn't be open to discussion or scrutiny, then you probably shouldn't post on a forum. It's frankly ridiculous to say something and then tell the others in the conversation not to respond to it.

GoldfishX wrote:

but then everyone started whining about how I'm somehow condoning harassment

And from there you've gone on to say that Sarkeesian probably gets off on it, and that Twitter death threats are never real so we shouldn't take them seriously (despite still being harassment). That sounds like condoning harassment to me.

I've shared several opinions regarding the topic both before and after it devolved into bickering about Sarkeesian--which again, YOU brought up. It seems silly to stamp your feet about not talking about her when you introduced her and several crackpot theories about her. It's not my fault you've chosen to ignore what else I (and others) have said and focus solely on what I (others) had said in response to you. Perhaps instead of repeating yourself you could have attempted to articulate yourself further, since evidently whatever you're repeating didn't suffice the first time.

It's nice that you seem to think of me as your personal nemesis, but several of us have taken you to task for specific things you've said and drawn similar conclusions. I'd been picking apart your words because I'd been really trying to understand them, Goldfish. They either weren't clear or they seemed to go against some of your claims of what you really stand for. I'd been trying to give you the benefit of the doubt and give you a chance to show that you believe the things you say you do, because what you were putting forth just wasn't supporting that. I wanted to believe it. As of this morning there's not much in the way of ambiguity.

Your latest response only further validates what Jay has said: you feel threatened. When you say "I don't want a solitary person with a Youtube channel to change the entire gaming industry with her extreme leftist views," what else do you expect people to think? She's one voice, dude. She's been doing her thing for several years and games like Bayonetta 2 are still coming out; she's not going to single-handedly eradicate...whatever it is you don't want gone. There could be a thousand more voices just like hers, and they'll still be dwarfed by the much larger chorus that's run the industry for years. More voices aren't going to hurt. We need more voices.

I'm as happy to cease the butting of heads as you are, so I will applaud you for combating the scourge of corrupt gaming journalism (as demonstrated by a tweet the personal Twitter account of a non-gamer) through example: If A isn't demonstrably true, then W X Y & Z probably are ("demonstrably" not important here)!

At least we can both agree on Firefox.

Ashley Winchester Sep 5, 2014

absuplendous wrote:

It's nice that you seem to think of me as your personal nemesis

I don't know if I'd go around cocking off like this... he's not the only person's whose gears you grind around here.

Take that as you will.

Intellicat Sep 5, 2014 (edited Sep 5, 2014)

The issues about GamerGate seem to be this:

-The issue about Zoe Quinn isn't that she slept with 5 guys, it's that she slept with these guys in order to get her game, a game that otherwise wouldn't have seen the light of day, advertised and published.

-Gaming journalists decided to attack gamers as being sexist for criticizing Quinn (because she's female - criticism of *A* woman - any woman - MUST automatically be misogynistic, right?) because they're trying to avert the negative attention from themselves, and possibly even promote a feminist agenda.

-A lot of gaming journalists seem only interested in promoting either a commercial or political agenda, or exploiting shitstorms for click bait, as opposed to actually being interested in video games.

The amount of deception and manipulation going on is actually pretty monumental, when you actually understand what's going on.

My problems with Sarkeesian stem from the fact that:
-She doesn't actually like video games.

-She steals other users' footage.

-She takes a lot of video game clips out of context, for example, Hitman, you have to sneak through a brothrel, and while you have the option to beat up a couple of strippers, the game actually discourages you from it by deducting from your a score.

-She's self-contradictory - scantily-clad females are taken as blatant objectification in one example, but taken as the oppression of female liberty and sexuality in another.

-She took $160,000 - about 3 years salary of an average white collar professional job - to make videos that didn't really require that kind of budget.

-She may or may not be an actual feminist - let alone equal rights feminist - and is only telling her chosen audience what they want to hear for money.

-If she was actually issued death threats on the internet, she really should've contacted the police, but where's the police report if she did contact the police? Why would not she not WANT to contact the police? Because she probably wasn't actually threatened, or was issued false threats from someone she is in cahoots with.

At least, that's what I've pieced together. Brilliant deductions, eh Watson?

vert1 Sep 5, 2014 (edited Sep 6, 2014)

This thread represents what I was trying to avoid by the introduction of the thread Conversational Sins. The gamergate topic shows off what happens on loosely moderated forums when shit hits the fan. On Neogaf they have rebranched the topic and updated the OP "read OP" (lmao) because people just want to explode on the title alone. Beneficial things that could have been done in this thread were:
(1) For myself to specifically mention that it was the celebrity stolen iPhone photos I was referring to when I wrote about recent 4chan news activity.

(2) For people to remember the thread was on "What do you think of 4chan?". If the topic on 4chan's handling of some situation they aren't the creators of starts to become too large it is better to give it its own separate topic.

(3) For the first person who mentioned Gamergate to quote a reliable source that accurately sums up "What is Gamergate". Had a stronger introduction been done a lot of conversation confusion which leads to anger would have been avoided. A lot of OPs need to quote more from the article linked. But there would still be a lot of frustration because:

(4) Understand that sexism and misogyny are wider topics beyond art (videogames) and require people to fully bear their philosophy on sexism and misogny. Since my large post has been passed over another thread can be started. It will go like this: First, we state the definitions of sexism and misogny. Second, we state our philosophies on sexism and misogny. Finally, we discuss with each other about all that and come to an understanding on our agreements and disagreements.

That's not even all of it though. Gamer culture and diversity, gamer, casual/hardcore gamer--these are big topics that have to addressed as well. There is no way we are going to be able to coherently address all this stuff in one thread. There is so much stuff to talk about it, but then you add the whole:

(5) For people to remember topics don't have to be replied to right away, especially highly emotional ones like this due to the amount of loaded words thrown around. (I've even saved another post I was making to look over.) It's good to take your time to think thing over. I'm not getting as worked up as everyone else because I've read the leading videogame authority's articles on all this stuff from 2008.

Keeping all that in mind will allow us to manage better conversations.

    Pages:
  • 1
  • 2

Board footer

Forums powered by FluxBB