Yeah, but a lot of those complaints are standard for the JRPG genre. At this point, I've learned to turn my brain off and go with the contrivances. If a character dies for a plot reason, they're dead but dying in battle isn't a big deal. Stuff like that. FFVII is far from a perfect game... but the things it does well, it does VERY well. I dare you to come up with a more memorable JRPG city than Midgar.

Of course, there's some games where the material is such mindnumbingly stupid that you can't forgive them. Eternal Sonata is an example.

Me too.

About Suikoden II, the Riou and Jowy relationship is supposed to be what makes it 'special', but I never found that aspect to be all that emotional or believable.  I prefer the cast (and music) of the original Suikoden to be sure.

My problem with Suikoden is that the games follow a formula they rarely deviate from.  They're linear, story-driven affairs with decent but unremarkable gameplay.  The stories are a notch above some of the derivative ones you'll find in other JRPGs, but I'm too much of a gameplay guy to ever fall head over heels for a Suikoden game.  Not when the Ogre Battle series provides the best of both worlds minus the anime-inspired silliness that pops up in Suikoden from time to time.

It's too bad that Suikoden III made more of an effort to try something new but wound up falling flat on its face.  I suppose that it's the FFVIII of the Suikoden games.  Some people insist that it's great and others think that it sucks.

Edit: I think FFVII is a more remarkable game on the whole than Suikoden II.  Suikoden II may have the better story in theory, but FFVII tells its story in a more memorable way through amazing locales like the aforementioned Midgar.  Plus the gameplay is more enjoyable.  You could say that the dungeons are a bit cookie-cutter, but they're more varied than Suikoden II's repetitive forest paths and copy and paste areas like Rockaxe.

The European translation of Suikoden II is slightly tweaked. It still has problems and a few silly lines such as "No! It's a lie!" when referring to an event, but when the characters aren't spouting "!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!", I think it's above most RPG translations of the time, except for the very stylish Vagrant Story.

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I think that it could have fallen apart, but Square refocused the story on Sephiroth to keep that from happening.  Cloud's story in Kalm helped to maintain much of the intrigue and atmosphere that had to inevitably take a hit after leaving Midgar.  They let you replay that mysterious event in Nibelheim and that helped to keep me excited about where the story was going.

FFVII's biggest problem, for me, is in the details.  I don't know how much you can blame on the translation (Tseng is dead in the PS1 version and alive in the PC version due to it, heh heh), but the story gets muddled at times, and the FFVII fans who claim that all of the misdirection is intentional are deceiving themselves.  There's also the ending, which instead of providing answers, only creates more questions.  Clarity is not FFVII's strong point, and I don't even think that the cast is particularly good, but the game is wonderfully atmospheric.  It simply possesses an inimitable quality that makes it larger than life.  Also, it's one of the more well-rounded RPGs out there in terms of being pretty good in most every department.

Of course, nothing will ever beat FFVI in my mind, but even though FFVII may not quite qualify as great for me, I think it's very good.  Suikoden II is very good as well, but I think FFVII is a little better.

(I tried to cover names to avoid spoiling anything, but it'll be pretty obvious what I'm talking about anyway, so hopefully most everyone entering this thread has already played Suikoden II and FFT)

I think my biggest problem with Suikoden II in terms of the story is Jowy.  He's no LB, and the story loses its edge after that point.  Such an ambivalent antagonist is hardly threatening, as when every opportunity created by his determination is abandoned by an unwillingness to follow through on the kind of drive that set him on that path in the first place, not only is the tension lost, but so is the consistency of the story.  There's also how the change happens without a real trigger, which makes it seem contrived.  It's shocking, but it's not very believable.  It's more believable that Delita becomes who he becomes in FFT.  Not only does the event itself in that one give him cause to doubt Ramza's friendship, but the notion that he was being looked down upon by and could never be equal to the nobles was constantly touched upon beforehand (his sister, Wiegraf and Miluda, etc), particularly through the presence of Algus.

I thought that Suikoden II would focus on the way that Jowy was betrayed by his family, but instead it kept hammering home in those moonlight scenes and such how the only thing he still believed in was Riou.  What happens then to make him turn his back on him?  He realizes that his friend can't win?  Even if you buy that (oh yes, losing the fort beforehand was an indication of how good their chances were), where did the ruthlessness come from?  He wasn't like that.  So while the concept of an antagonist who believes himself to be fighting for the greater good via some questionable methods is interesting, the execution leaves something to be desired.  There were a few good scenes after that point, but both of them involved LB while he was still around. (the poisoning and the unleashing of the beast rune were great scenes; I like the latter in particular because LB teases Jowy and his motivations a bit when he speaks of a similar darkness in his eyes)

I played Suikoden V for 33 hours but the character recruitment element and ho-hum gameplay eventually got to me.  I did of course finish the first two Suikoden games, and while it's clear that SV takes a lot after the 2D titles (which is surely what makes it the best of the PS2 games), it drags more and it doesn't quite have the same punch.  I'd try to finish it anyway if I still had it (wouldn't want those 33 hours to be for nothing), but I sold the game a while back.

I had much more of a problem with Nanami.  > SPOILERS FOLLOW <  She was a good idea on paper, I'm sure, as a character who bravely put on a carefree and bubbly facade while her heart rended as she watched her family land on opposite sides of a war.  It would have been profound if the writers had succeeded with that characterization.  Instead, Nanami came across as a total ditz providing awfully timed comic relief until late in the game, and her feelings are revealed only if you get the right ending.

Yeah, Nanami seemed like she should be in a different game or something, as her mood was always the complete opposite of the very serious mood (which actually felt more serious than that of the first Suikoden) the game had.  She's part of that anime silliness I was talking about, though as far as the core issues of the story go, she's hardly important.  She's just there as the traditional bad ending sacrifice.  I agree that her playful enthusiasm didn't always seem appropriate.  You need comic relief, but you can't just arbitrarily inject it in at certain points, and Nanami's constant denial of the graveness of the situation was just annoying.

There was a boatload of new info released about the game today, most of it through IGN. Game looks and sounds really good, and what's more, it could be getting released in just a few months, with a possible English release pegged for February (and some sources hinting even sooner). Would be insanely cool to get to play this so soon!

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I wonder whether I should wait for the U.S. release before buying a DS.  How many DS hardware revisions can we expect to see between now and February?  Two?  Three?

A new DS model? Probably around zero. DS lite is selling incredible amounts and pretty much nobody has any idea on how to improve the existing design.

Two touch screens and internal flash memory to support downloading of classic GB/GBC/GBA/GG/WS/WSC/NGP/NGPC games via an online store (Virtual Portable instead of Virtual Console).

That wouldn't be a hardware revision, it would be a new platform with games that couldn't be played the same way on the existing DS.

Regardless of having dual touch screens or not, getting rid of the GBA cartridge slot, putting in a few gigs of flash memory, enabling a Virtual Console-type download service and slimming down the size seems like the logical next hardware revision.

Removing the GBA slot would break backwards compatibility with games like Guitar Hero on Tour and Daigasso Jam with the Band, as well as programs like Opera DS.

This could hardly be called a hardware revision in the sense that DS lite was, it would be a new platform, called DS2 or whatever, and the chances of a DS successor right now are even slimmer than a simple hardware revision.

So, it will completely safe to buy a DS right now and be playing Suikoden Tierkreis on that in hopefully six months' time.

Zero hardware revisions between now and February, huh?

http://www.reuters.com/article/technolo … nologyNews

Yeah, I'm a little embarrassed right now. Even moreso because the DSi fulfills the requirements of a new platform instead of just a remodel. It can be considered a Gameboy Color level upgrade, or maybe even Wii level, with the exception that it's a direct successor since Gamecube was a failure and the DS wasn't. Apparently Nintendo had quite a few ideas, and some of them had been thrown around even before. But I would never have thought they'd remove the GBA slot. But at least it will still be safe to play Tierkreis on a DS lite, and it looks like the DSi might not make it to the US in time for it, if you're not willing to import (and the new model is going to be really hard to get in the beginning).

Some disappointing news from the latest Nintendo Power.  It talks about what will and won't be making its way into Tierkreis from other Suikoden titles.  Some may consider this to be a spoiler for some reason, so read at your own risk:

POSSIBLE SPOILER

"Several Suikoden standbys are absent, too: you now buy new weapons instead of upgrading your existing gear, there are no True Runes, and one-on-one duels and strategy battles are missing in action (although there are multiparty skirmishes that take place during major battle campaigns).  Even recurring characters that have appeared in every Suikoden game until now, such as magicians Viki and Jeane, are no-shows.  'This is a new game and it is completely different from previous Suikoden titles, so all the characters are new as well,' emphasizes Saruta.  "There are not any locations or stages from any previous Suikoden titles.  The scene of the game is one of parallel worlds.'"  The also talk about

END SPOILER

So yeah, I think the game will be interesting, but that's definitely a dose of bad news in my opinion.

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Seriously.  I'm still looking forward to it, but this is definitely a blow to all of us who were waiting for the next chapter.  Even if it's not "Suikoden VI," I don't see the point in this approach.

http://www.konamistyle.jp/ecitem/item54708.html

So Konami will release the soundtrack separately... and it will be 3 discs?! What's that mention of a bonus DVD, is it only with the limited edition of the game?

Yeah, put the entry up for the separate release in VGMdb last week.  Miura confirmed it personally, saying he doesn't really agree with bundling soundtracks with games.  Now if only they'd go back and unbundle Order of Ecclesia.

Anyone actually play this? I got it after a long search (the availability here makes it seem like the game was released as a formality, just to fulfill some contract or to launder mafia money or something) and, so far, I'm liking it.

I only ever played the first two Suikoden games and this one feels very different, the only connection so far being the idea of 108 Stars of Destiny and a familiar tune on the save screen. But the production values seem really high and they've got it looking lovely on the DS. Backgrounds in particular are great, though in gameplay many just amount to an A to B run, lacking in any exploration.

Characters look nice too. Nothing that stands out but well made.

I haven't got far enough in to make any call on the story but, so far, I'm liking this.

It's okay. My two biggest complaints are the terrible voice acting and the unchallenging battles (which is a common Suikoden problem). People who are further in the game say not to expect much from the story. It's okay for what it is but it's not the epic tale (ala II and V) we were hoping for.

I've only played the first two Suikoden games. But I thought they were incredible. Especially 2. 2 is one of my favorite games now. They combine so many elements from my favorite games. Like the unite attacks. And the semi-customizable castle. I'm up for a new game in that series.

Many people think 3 and 4 were genuine failures (ain't played too much of them myself), but it is generally regarded that Suiko 5 is a grand return to form. Check it out, it gets my stamp of approval.

From what I heard, 3 was a step back, 4 was a leap backwards and over a cliff, and 5 was an attempt to climb back up.

I still say that Suikoden III was a step forward and back at the same time and is on par with Suikoden II, but not for the same reasons.  Suik4's cliff was pretty gosh darn long though.  That was one mighty fall!

3 is still my favorite, though I've never played 4 or 5 (and in fact, playing through 1-3 in a very short time span made me sick of RPGs for a long, long time).

Suikoden IV leapt off a cliff... and grew wings to fly! Awesome game. Way better than that atrocity that was part 3.

wait, what? die!

Sami's avatar is really giving me the willies.

Pellasos's does that to me. But then again, Zangief always looks like he's about to rape something, and that ain't Pellasos' fault.

http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/2313/v … 802ps2.jpg

Wow, right through his pants.