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Daniel K Aug 15, 2009

Since the game has been out for eight months, I run the risk of being ignored with this post, but I thought I'd jot down some of my thoughts on Persona 4 anyway, as I just finished my second playthrough. Needless to say, there will be massive spoilers as to the game's story/plot below (an especially important point to make in this case, as the story is a murder mystery). I can just say up front that the game itself is incredible (it improves on P3 in every way, hands down the best RPG on the PS2 and probably the last big hit on that console), and I wholeheartedly recommend everyone to go experience this completely engrossing tale. If you haven't played and finished it yet, please stop reading here! Seriously... trust me.















































Well, I think I can sum up my general opinion of Persona 4 by quoting Zorbfish from the OST thread:

Zorbfish wrote:

As much as I like P3, both the game and its soundtrack, I have to admit P4 towers over it on all levels.

Indeed. The two games are very similar, but P4 improves upon it's predecessor in just about every way imaginable. The soundtrack is much, much better (although I won't elaborate on that further here, the music has a thread of it's own), as great as the cast and the plot was in P3, they're even better here, the flow of the school-year is better planned and utilized, etc. Possibly the biggest improvement alongside the music is the writing on the Social Link scenarios, which I found much more engaging and less forced than the ones in P3. They just felt more realistic and interesting, and the addition of part-time jobs was a natural evolution of the concept.

The thing that makes P4 shine even brighter is, in my opinion, that it to a significantly larger degree than P3 hearkened back to the earlier games and the ideas found in them, while mixing these elements with P3's addictive and innovative gameplay mechanics to form a synthesis of the best of both worlds. Much has already been said about the "risque" sexual elements in the plot and characterization. I don't really have much to say or add on the subject other than that I'm glad that this theme - which very much permeated P2 - is back in full force, as its very befitting the Persona series mature and hard-edged character and the teenage/high school setting (because high school kids are always horny, you know). Examining the main cast closely, we find that just like "real" young people, all of them have sexual fears, desires and insecurities that bear upon how they act and interact. This is mostly pulled off pretty well, which is an achievement in and of itself (in most JRPGs, the roles of "lovers" are usually reserved to two or a few more characters, usually the hero and his love interest, while the other characters are shooed away into an asexual corner to play out their assigned stereotypes).

What probably pleased me the most about the game storywise was the reappearance of the "Shadow Selves" from P2. This was an aspect that I sorely missed in P3 and which robbed that game of some of the psychological and philosophical impact it could have had. The shadow aspect is done very well in P4, and it really makes us get close to the characters and makes the implications of "searching for the truth" much more poignant than if it had just been the search of an external truth (like only solving the murder case).

Overall, I absolutely loved the story in this game. It was well-written, original and very captivating. The only complaint I have here - and in fact the only major complaint I have about the game at all - is a nerdy nitpick about the "True" ending (that is, the final ending where you fight Izanami on 3/20). It seems like in introducing a god as the ultimate antagonist, they've really stepped across a border in the Persona series. What I always loved about these games was that they were so sharp and abundant in philosophical and psychological insights - they were a thinking man's RPG. What formed the basis and framework for the stories was the focus on how our ideas, dreams, wishes, expectations, fears, etc. shape the world, and the complex interplay between the individual and the Collective Unconscious (an important element of the stories). This aspect is of course central to P4 as well, and its done very well, but whereas it always stayed at the internal struggle of the human heart in the earlier games, they brought in an outside force for the first time: Izanami, the mother goddess of Japanese mythology. Sure, the earlier games were saturated with mythological creatures and gods (practically every persona is taken from various mythologies), but it was always made clear that these were in fact representations or images/ideas created and summoned by humans, psychological shades of people's souls. Even the final evils like Nyarlathotep in P2 and Nyx in P3 were really just supreme manifestations of mankind's fear and self-loathing, a sort of personified manifestation of all our suicidal and self-destructive tendencies, our drive towards nothingness and destruction. P4 seems to radically depart from this as Izanami is clearly presented as being not a manifestation of anything in people's minds, but as the actual goddess from the Japanese creationist myth, standing apart from mankind and watching and "testing" us. I don't know about this, I know many people may think this is completely irrelevant, but it hit me as a very important point, as it seems to strongly change the emphasis and philosophy of the series (which I enjoy very much, if you couldn't already guess). I'm not freaking out over it yet, but I hope Persona 5 doesn't continue any further in this direction as it would very likely ultimately result in the series becoming another "epic god-slaying" JRPG deal (and yes, I know the main SMT series is very much into that mythological stuff in a more concrete sense, but Persona used to be an exception).

While we're at that subject, I wonder why they scrapped the whole Philemon/Nyarlathotep struggle from the first two games? Obviously they wanted to make a fresh start with the new system when they made P3, but I still think its a shame, since that dichotomy brought out so well what the series is all about. Since there were butterflies used as save points in P4, I kept thinking that Philemon would show up eventually (his symbol is a butterfly), but to my disappointment that wasn't so. Izanami and Ameno-Sagiri are, to put it mildly, poor and bland replacements.

Apart from the ending/last portion of the game, which I thought was fairly weak, the story was incredible. The whole "murder mystery" angle really made it fresh and original. Mirroring the great plot is the cast, which I found to be a definite step up from P3's (which itself was very good). Whereas there were some characters (even party members) that I just didn't like in P3, I liked all the main characters in P4. To my great surprise, I didn't find Teddie nearly as annoying as I expected I would. His voice was irritating and I hated the bear-suit, but he was sufficiently whacked and mildly demented for me to be able to stand him, at least. In regards to the cast, I think that especially the female main characters were much better developed and interesting than their counterparts in P3 (although they're neck-to-neck with the ones from P1 and P2). My party of choice was: Chie, Yukiko, and Kanji.

As for the pure gameplay-aspects, I don't have particularly much to comment on, everything was just touched up and sharpened from P3. The awesome battle-system got even better, the different, distinct dungeons were a huge improvement on the anonymous Tartarus tower, etc. One thing that surprised me is that I heard from many people beforehand that P4 was supposedly harder than P3, which I personally can't agree with at all. I thought battles were much easier in P4, I hardly even died. Whereas even minor enemies would often blast your ass with instant-death spells in P3, I think I only got hit with a Hama or Mudo about four or five times through all of P4 (and each time it missed), and whereas there were a few boss battles that really got me sweating and cursing in P3, I just completely cruised through them and handed out beat-downs in P4. Is it just me? What do you guys think of the difficulty? (Note: I played on "Normal" difficulty).

To conclude, any gripes I have with Persona 4 are minor and ultimately irrelevant. The game is a masterpiece and I enjoyed just about every second of it, even the less striking ones. Now I'm eagerly awaiting the P1 remake for PSP!

Idolores Aug 16, 2009 (edited Aug 16, 2009)

I am right at the very end of the game, so I pretty much skipped your entire write-up up until it's end, but I have to agree with you on much of the praise you bequeathed on it. I loved every facet of Persona 3, and much of my tiny gripes with the game (stupid menu functions like the cursor resetting to the top when I wanted to heal my dudes, FFIV SNES style) were handily addressed in P4. The quick travel function mapped to the Square button felt so natural that I went back to P3 and was actually shocked that it wasn't there. Character development felt more intimate due to the nature of the dungeon set-up they had going, and everything looks like it's come full circle.

Another thing I'm liking about the game (which seems to extend to SMT titles in general) is that it doesn't hold your hand. It lets you figure out the systems in place and won't pull it's punches at all. I can't count how many times I've beaten a particular boss with ease only to be knocked the f--- out by a random shadow the superceding night because of a slight error in judgement. At any time, the game can destroy you if you're not careful, and as a result, I am always on my toes. I like that a lot. EDIT To answer Daniel K's question about the difficulty, the whole reason I found these games hard is because I thought I could breeze through them like so many Final Fantasies, but after getting royally screwed as quickly and harshly as I did, I learned to stay on my toes. After that, it's not too bad, but like I said, the game doesn't hold your hand, and sometimes even minor muck-ups can cost you the game. tongue

The music is a huge treat. I wish I could find the words, but it's like j-pop candy coated goodness topped off with a generous helping of 1960's style retro camp. Really nice stuff and one of the highlights of the game. Daniel K, you been playing SMT for a long while, how would P4 compare to earlier works in the series, musically speaking?

All told? Probably one of my favorite games on PS2, definitely in my Top Ten RPG's and easily on my list of best games ever. big_smile

Another Edit: Party wise, focus on building your teammate's S-Links above anyone elses. Getting them to max out will unlock new forms that often will eliminate elemental weaknesses, something I found to be absolutely invaluable. Also, Yukiko, Yukiko, Yukiko. I don't care who else you use, but keep Yukiko on at all times. She can dole out massive hurt with her fire skills and her healing is absolutely indispensable, and as such, you should not dispense with it.

Daniel K Aug 16, 2009 (edited Aug 16, 2009)

Idolores wrote:

The quick travel function mapped to the Square button felt so natural that I went back to P3 and was actually shocked that it wasn't there.

Definitely! I forgot to mention this, but its just one of the ways in which they made the gameplay slicker.

Idolores wrote:

Another thing I'm liking about the game (which seems to extend to SMT titles in general) is that it doesn't hold your hand. It lets you figure out the systems in place and won't pull it's punches at all. I can't count how many times I've beaten a particular boss with ease only to be knocked the f--- out by a random shadow the superceding night because of a slight error in judgement. At any time, the game can destroy you if you're not careful, and as a result, I am always on my toes. I like that a lot. EDIT To answer Daniel K's question about the difficulty, the whole reason I found these games hard is because I thought I could breeze through them like so many Final Fantasies, but after getting royally screwed as quickly and harshly as I did, I learned to stay on my toes. After that, it's not too bad, but like I said, the game doesn't hold your hand, and sometimes even minor muck-ups can cost you the game. tongue

I guess I've gotten so used to SMT's special brand of tactical fighting that once P4 came around, I got so good that the game felt really easy to me. smile I can see how some people find it difficult, however. As you said, in the wrong circumstances, the enemies can really f--- you up, and quickly, too. But the trick is really no big deal: as you said, always keep on your toes. Pay attention to what attacks the enemies have (once Rise gets in your team, their spells show up if you analyze them, which is the first thing you should always do when you meet a new enemy). Also, personas are important. Don't just check out what skills they have: pay keen attention to their assigned strengths and weaknesses as well. A persona with many strengths and relatively few/none weaknesses will go a long way in keeping you alive. Common sense, really.

Idolores wrote:

Daniel K, you been playing SMT for a long while, how would P4 compare to earlier works in the series, musically speaking?

Well, just like P3, its a little more pop-sounding than the the average SMT soundtrack, and its generally "happier" and more light-hearted. It seems to be on the more "mellow" end of the spectrum, soundtracks like Maken X (technically not SMT, but as close as you can get), part of the Persona 2s, SMT3: Nocturne, and Soul Hackers are more "hardcore". I like P4's music a lot, though, one of my favourites in the series (and I usually don't like pop-ish music, so that says a lot).

Idolores wrote:

Also, Yukiko, Yukiko, Yukiko. I don't care who else you use, but keep Yukiko on at all times. She can dole out massive hurt with her fire skills and her healing is absolutely indispensable, and as such, you should not dispense with it.

Yes, yes, and YES! After the main character (who wins by default, since he has like 200 potential personas to choose from), Yukiko is definitely the best party member to bring with you into the dungeons. She's the hardest magical attacker in the team as well as the best healer = instant win. On both my playthroughs, I leveled up all my characters to lv 99, and by the time you get up into the 90s, Yukiko basically finishes most normal battles on her own (the battle music hardly has time to begin properly). She's also a complete honey, and definitely the one I started pursuing first (ifyouknowwhatImean!). I also had a weakness for Ai Ebihara and Yumi Azawa (but they're not playable characters).

Raziel Aug 16, 2009 (edited Aug 16, 2009)

I posted an amateurish review of it on MobyGames a while back.

http://www.mobygames.com/game/ps2/shin- … rId,66282/

I think it's easily the weakest Megaten game I've played so far (I've completed Nocturne, The Soulless Army, P3, currently playing DDS and SMT), though, and while it's a great game, I hoped for something more (I was really interested in the murder mystery part before playing it). Objectively you can say that it's a big improvement over P3, but I didn't feel for the characters nor the story as I do for P3. And retrospectively speaking, the issues I had with the game in the first two paragraphs in "Bad" section seem really annoying now.

Oh, and for those who claim themselves "true Japanophiles" and absolutely despise dubs, all I can say that the original voice actors are WORSE than the English actors.

I went for Chie myself. Yukiko is that type of girl I'd find really boring, and there weren't any other interesting girls.

P3 was better in that regard, I liked all the girls pretty much equally (okay, the one with the glasses captured my heart big_smile).

I look forward to Persona PSP. It has something that really makes me gravitate towards it from what I've gathered. "Let butterflies spread until the dawn" smile

Daniel K Aug 16, 2009

Hm, it seems we're not in agreement on P4. I read your review, and I found this part interesting:

Raziel's review wrote:

There are multiple endings, and while it's natural that bad endings don't offer much of a closure on the plot, it's absolutely absurd to hide the true ending from the player. Yes, hide. In order to get the true ending you have to make some unbelievably cryptic choices. The game actually lies to you so that you would miss the real ending with it's delicious revelations.

I get the feeling that this is one of the reasons you thought it was the weakest Megaten game you've played? If so, I must say that its the exact opposite for me: I loved this. I like secrets and I especially like when games don't spell everything out for you, where you have to do some searching yourself. In my opinion, "unbelievably cryptic" is very exaggerated, to get past the bad ending especially is very easy (the answers to the questions are very intuitive). The game doesn't really actively lie to you: it pushes your buttons to make you go for the false exits (remember, not telling/showing you something is not the same thing as lying to you). Its it's purpose, actually, as one of the major themes of the story is the search for truth and the avoidance of easy ways out.

Raziel wrote:

Oh, and for those who claim themselves "true Japanophiles" and absolutely despise dubs, all I can say that the original voice actors are WORSE than the English actors.

I definitely agree with that, the English version had much better voice actors (I think the whole cast was phenomenal, with the exception of Teddie).

Raziel wrote:

I went for Chie myself. Yukiko is that type of girl I'd find really boring, and there weren't any other interesting girls.

Chie was very cool as well. As for Yukiko, I thought they fleshed her out enough to avoid the "meek Japanese girl" stereotype, especially in her Social Link scenarios.

Raziel wrote:

P3 was better in that regard, I liked all the girls pretty much equally (okay, the one with the glasses captured my heart big_smile).

Uh, no. Sorry but I'm gonna have to violently disagree there. tongue All of the girls in P3 were pretty much stereotypes. Also, you found Yukiko boring but fell for Chichiro (or whatever her name was)...?

Raziel wrote:

I look forward to Persona PSP. It has something that really makes me gravitate towards it from what I've gathered. "Let butterflies spread until the dawn" smile

P1 has always been close to my heart, but there's no denying that the original PS1 game had a boatload of technical problems in it's original incarnation, as well as a completely botched translation. This remake is the perfect opportunity for Atlus to remedy that and make it the full-rounded masterpiece it was meant to be. Can't wait. smile

Idolores Aug 16, 2009 (edited Aug 16, 2009)

Chihiro in P3 melted my heart. I would wreck that girl. Probably why I went for Yukiko in P4:-D

Daniel K Aug 16, 2009

Idolores wrote:

Chihiro in P3 melted my heart. I would wreck that girl. Probably why I went for Yukiko in P4:-D

Well, if you check by Arcana (which supposedly typifies the corresponding person's character), Yukiko's equivalent in P3 is Fuuka (the Priestess link). Fuuka is the one I fell for in P3, and Yukiko in P4, so I guess I just really like those Priestess girls. smile

Chihiro's Arcana was Justice, so her equivalent in P4 would be... Nanako. Let's not think that thought to it's end, alright...? tongue

Nekobo Aug 17, 2009

I favor the story and themes (Memento Mori) in P3, but P4 is definitely the better game. I was surprised at how much humor they packed into the game.

Raziel Aug 18, 2009

Daniel K wrote:

I get the feeling that this is one of the reasons you thought it was the weakest Megaten game you've played?

Well, not exactly. It was an enjoyable and high-quality adventure, but it didn't resonate with me entirely. I thought that the idea of inner selves was under developed and the acceptances were conveyed without much honest emotion.

Daniel K wrote:

Uh, no. Sorry but I'm gonna have to violently disagree there. tongue All of the girls in P3 were pretty much stereotypes. Also, you found Yukiko boring but fell for Chichiro (or whatever her name was)...?

Obviously. I'd never go for someone like Yukiko. If I wanted good looks, I'd pick Rise. smile And well, in regards to Ai, I hate girls who ditch classes. Yumi's social link was more about his father, so I didn't feel attachment to her.

I do respect your views, however, and even understand them. Both games are essentially very similar, and everything depends on your particular tastes.

By the way, do you know that Persona 3 Portable is coming for PSP? This time you can play as a girl, too.

Daniel K Aug 18, 2009 (edited Aug 18, 2009)

Raziel wrote:
Daniel K wrote:

I get the feeling that this is one of the reasons you thought it was the weakest Megaten game you've played?

Well, not exactly. It was an enjoyable and high-quality adventure, but it didn't resonate with me entirely. I thought that the idea of inner selves was under developed and the acceptances were conveyed without much honest emotion.

Well, I agree that it wasn't Dostoevsky or something, but as far as video games go, P4 is definitely one of the best games to portray the "facing yourself"-deal. In the context of the media-form its in, I personally wouldn't call the psychological elements of P4 "under developed" by any stretch of the imagination, a lot of time and effort in the game is devoted to character development. Do you have any examples of games you feel do it better? (Because if you do, I'd certainly be interested!).

Also, if you say this is your least favourite Megaten game in part because under developed story-elements, do I take it that you thought Nocturne was better in that department? Because that game, as awesome as it otherwise was, had about zip character development.

Even though I'm bitchin', I do respect your opinion. smile I can see how the game can't resonate with everyone. You can't win 'em all.

Raziel wrote:

Obviously. I'd never go for someone like Yukiko. If I wanted good looks, I'd pick Rise. smile

Rise was cool, charming, and very good-looking and all, but I never really fell for her as she's the type of girl I'd rather have as a friend than being on intimate terms with (same goes for Chie).

Raziel wrote:

And well, in regards to Ai, I hate girls who ditch classes.

Did you complete Ai's Social Link? If you did, you should know that she turns around eventually and begins taking responsibility for her actions. I actually felt it was one of the more interesting Social Link scenarios, it felt more "real" than many others (I used to know many girls like that in high school, I think we all did), because it felt like she made a substantial change to her lifestyle in a more realistic way than many of the others. I'd have to say that, in retrospect, Ai was probably the coolest girl in the game (in my opinion). I think she would have made a much more interesting party member and story element than either Yosuke, Teddie, or Naoto.

Raziel wrote:

By the way, do you know that Persona 3 Portable is coming for PSP? This time you can play as a girl, too.

That's interesting. Have any links for us? I hope this isn't another case of "we'll remake the soundtrack then only sell it together with the game". That worked with P1, since they're cleaning up a lot of things that were broken in the original, but I'm guessing they won't add that much to the P3 remake?

The part about playing as a girl is very cool, though. This is something I thought about in regards to both P3 and P4: if the protagonist is mute and of indeterminate character anyway, why not just let us choose what gender they'd be?

Raziel Aug 19, 2009

Daniel K wrote:

if you say this is your least favourite Megaten game in part because under developed story-elements, do I take it that you thought Nocturne was better in that department? Because that game, as awesome as it otherwise was, had about zip character development.

Of course not. But in that case, the world is more important than characters. The characters go over a transformation that turns them from usual teenagers to hosts of the Ideas. They're nothing more than a shell of their former self, manifestations or the driving force behind the Reasons.

I wasn't really keen on the lack of character development at first, but it was my first Megaten experience, and it took time adjusting. I'm actually fond of the sparse dialogue of Nocturne now, as it's a great example of a minimalistic story that's more meaningful than JRPGs which try to drown you in a sea of pseudo-philosophical blabber (Xenogears).

Persona 3 Portable

I doubt Meguro will contribute anything new, but I'm wondering how much did the developers rewrite for the female character. You can't have her going on a babe hunt, can you?

Eirikr Aug 19, 2009

Raziel wrote:

Persona 3 Portable

I doubt Meguro will contribute anything new

It is actually supposed to have some new stuff so I've read. It's also rumored that he is the producer of this port.

Cedille Aug 19, 2009

Yeah, some additional music is confirmed. Nothing regarding Meguro's role is announced so far, but I've already seen a few people fear he will have a higher position once again ;p 

It's likely music will become worse though, as Meguro had to face the limitation even in the port of a PSX game, and this time it's from PS2.

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