I've just taken the opportunity to finally play ZELDA--TWILIGHT PRINCESS (the GC version).  Three words sum up my feelings:

THIS... GAME... ROCKS!!!!

The graphics are absolutely beautiful, the gameplay is engrossing (as ever), and, as promised, it's much more immerse and expansive than any other ZELDA game I've played.  I'd almost go far as to say that it surpasses its predecessors combined, and considering how excellent virtually many of them are, that's saying a lot.

And to top it all off, the soundtrack is amazing--probably the best ZELDA score I've heard thus far.  Subtly packed with remixes from classic titles (I bet you didn't know that Foron Woods mixes parts of "Forbidden Forest" from WINDWAKER!) and equally great new tracks (Hyrule Field's new main theme is especially lovely).  The music that really surprised me was the music for the Twilight segments.  Ominous in tone with mellotron and eerie synth samples, these segments literally give listeners the creeps.

This is a score that DESERVES a full-fledged soundtrack.  Come on, Nintendo, announce it, please?

-Jon T.

The latest Nintendo Power offer says that if you subscribe, you can get the soundtrack to this game.
http://www.nintendopower.com/zelda/

I already know about that; it's an incomplete release--I'm really waiting for the Japanese OST.  THAT should be more complete.

Given that there is so much music in the game, Nintendo will have to plan their disc count carefully if they're going to include all the songs.

-Jon T.

This game has some terrible music.  The arrangements of classic Zelda music is great, but most of the new pieces suck.  I don't get the hype.

Nevermind.

That's some guys' opinion.  I've found the ZELDA TP music to be high quality, even in the MIDI format--which is actually of a higher quality than that in OoT, MM, and WW, although probably not as good as other titles, like FIRE EMBLEM-PATH OF RADIANCE or PAPER MARIO THOUSAND YEAR DOOR.

It took me a while for the new music pieces to grow on me, but after playing through the game, I've found them to be quite memorable.  I hope the CD set arrives soon.

-Jon T.

I thought the new stuff was pretty good... and I only thought the boss themes were synthy (except for Ganondorf's music... 2 of which were outstanding).

I'm thinking this is the same situation in Japan as well regarding Cube/Wii TP sales.

I doubt TP did anywhere near as well on the Gamecube in Japan - it's only sold online, and hasn't shown up high enough to make a mark on any of the charts.  Also, while that US number is impressive, remember that the Gamecube version launched in December, while the Wii version is probably leaps and bounds ahead of it in total sales given that a ton of people probably picked it up in those 11 days after launch in November.

Would there be any outside independent sales tracking for the Cube version of TP in Japan though... being as though it's not going through the usual retail channels?

Also, another note on the music.  I think Nintendo should outsource Zelda soundtracks.  I love hearing what people can do with the old Zelda themes after the Minish Cap, which had very clever arrangements.  I would love to hear what arrangements someone like Sakimoto could come up with.  Or better yet, Sakuraba. 

Sakuraba scoring a Zelda game... half original music, the other other half arranged Kondo classics = orgasm.

To tell you the truth, I didn't notice, nor really remember, for that matter, whether the music was synthesized or not during the boss themes because I was so engrossed by every one of the battles; hearing the music, regardless of whether it was synthesized or not, really seemed to heighten the tension, especially when (SPOILER ALERT!) a jaunty, heroic fanfare plays as Link closes in to deliver the blow to the fallen bosses.  But I do agree that the Ganondorf Battle music in this game rocks; much more so than the one in WINDWAKER, which was good, don't get me wrong, but nowhere nearly as awesome as "Last Battle" in OCARINA OF TIME or on TWILIGHT PRINCESS.

-Jon T.

While I have my complaints about the music in TP, I did like the way the composers used the many themes from the Field music in other pieces (like the one described).

The game is certainly fantastic, and the music definitely has its moments. Overall, I'm not really upset about the music, however there is no doubt it could have been MUCH better. My personal opinion is that the compositions are quite good, but the quality (with the exception of a few tracks which I think are instrumental) has not improved since the N64!  Nintendo could easily have orchestrated the score, and then it would have been awesome!

Furthermore, the characters "speak" as much as they do in Ocarina of Time...come on Nintendo, give us more than "uh-huh", "grrr", "mmm", "hahaha"!! Even cartridges (such as the N64's Perfect Dark) had fully spoken diaologue. Complaints aside, it's a great game, but I really feel like Nintendo could have given us more in the sound and music department.

cheers,

-avatar!

I really appreciate how much they've arranged the music.  There are always little subtle hints of tunes from previous Zelda games, which a lot of people have already mentioned.  I think that approach is refreshing.  I still can't stand the stupid shop song that they've been using since OoT.  Bring back the Lttp guessing game house song!

The song I can't stand is the damn piece that plays whenever you enter a house. It's the most obnoxious thing ever composed and they keep on reusing it!

I think it's extremely unrealistic to expect Nintendo to orchestrate an ENTIRE Zelda score.

Why?
Full orchestrations have been done since before 1998, I don't think this is asking Nintendo to do too much at all.

-avatar!

I don't think it's unrealistic to expect more than one piece of music to have been orchestrated after Kondo said they would orchestrate as much of the music as financially reasonable, or whatever.  Thanks for the lies, guys!

I think it would've been financially impossible to have orchestrated the score (all factors involved, it may have cost up to and beyond $100,000).

So Harry,

You're saying that Square can afford to make symphonic suite albums for the very few people in the world that buy VGM, while Nintendo can't afford to orchestrate the music for their most popular series?

I suppose that's possible, but it doesn't seem likely.  It just seems lazy.

I mean, even Blizzard used an orchestra for Diablo II.

That's not to say I don't like the music.  Would have been tons better orchestrated.

Why? Compared to how much it costs to produce a game in general these days, that's nothing.

You're forgetting that we are talking about an entire score, which can consist of over 50 - 60 different pieces (I'm not sure how much music is used in LoZ: TP). Square Enix's symphonic suites for Dragon Quest contain the best of the tracks from games (often arranged into medleys). Even then, it's a different issue because they aren't original scores, and make money separately from the game (and Dragon Quest, one of (if not, THE) the highest selling series in the world, and with over 20 years of trial and error, and with Sugiyama orchestrating himself, thus cutting costs in pre-production, Square Enix can easily afford to do this).

If Square Enix wanted to, they probably could've orchestrated the entire score to Final Fantasy XII (or any other Final Fantasy game, post-FFVII). Why not? It's Final Fantasy. But it's a HUGE amount of money, and a game's production budget won't usually have that kind of cash just for the sound.

For Zelda, it probably would've been better if the soundtrack was orchestral, but what I'm trying to say is, it's a big risk and a lot of money spent.

For the sound division, you need to add the additional cost of the composer salary for the score (roughly, anywhere between $30,000 - $50,000. This is generalized, as each company will usually have their rules on paying the composer). In the case of Zelda, you have 3 composers, so that's also about $120,000 of money to the composer. Then, you need an orchestrator. In any good case, a decent orchestrator would charge anywhere between $3,000 - $5,000 per piece (knowing Nintendo, they'd want a pretty good one -- also, it depends on length of track and how many instruments required. And taking into account there is about 50 pieces in Twilight Princess). Totaling, you have roughly $250,000 just for orchestration and arrangement. Then, you need to find yourself a good orchestra (video games usually just hire out individual musicians for an orchestra; they don't use established orchestras often), and paying those for performance, rehearsal, etc., that can be anywhere between $50,000 - $80,000 depending on size (how many players, etc). Then comes the recording sessions, and, with Zelda and about 50 tracks, that can take about a week to about 10 days just to record (thus, anywhere between $80,000 - $100,000 for a big studio to fit 40 - 60 performers).

I'd hardly call that 'nothing' in terms of money spent.

Then why is it so many games made in the US, even PC ones (which tend to sell less) have fully orchestral scores?

Granted there's probably less music than a typical Zelda game, but for the past four years or so it's gotten to be the norm rather than the exception.

-Joshua

Most US games which do use an 'orchestra' (by the quotes, I mean 20 - 30 people; more akin to an 'ensemble'. In fact, only a few games have used what, by my definition, is an orchestra - it's well known that many games - Japanese and US - use only half an orchestra, occasionally a little more than a quarter, to pull off the music) only have 15 - 20 tracks (a little bit generalized, but fairly true). That can easily be recorded in a couple of days, and is cost effective. It can also be noted that US games from successful studios generally have a higher budget to work with, compared to most Japanese games.

So far, the most elaborate use of orchestrated music in an RPG was DQ8. Of course, that music was taken straight from the Symphonic Suite. I'm sure games with the budget of FFXII could afford to orchestrate their entire score (which would have been about two and a half hours of music) but I guess they didn't want the added expense.

Why is everyone so hung up on the orchestra stuff?  I don't think having an orchestra adds anything.  I'd much rather have the dynamic, context sensitive synth.  Now, I agree that Zelda could use a synth upgrade, and higher quality synth most certainly exists.  I'd greatly prefer Nintendo upgrade its synths than go with an orchestra, especially for in-game music.  For cut scene music, I guess it doesn't really matter.

To break into the debate a moment, I found the following post over at The Hylia:

"Music: Twilight Princess OST      01/13/07 14:54
By TSA
So I found another solution for the music for those of you who absolutely must have the Twilight Princess soundtrack. Although not every piece is in it, it still has a good majority of the tracks. The files are in a .zip file."

...which leads to THIS:
http://www.archive.org/download/twiligh … ost/tp.zip

Beware...it's a 377-MB monster.

OK, from the rip, there are 173 themes. I will only count all the tracks that are over 1 megabyte in size (as they would usually be the pieces which are orchestrated) which totals to 108 tracks. Let's add estimated costs:

Composer salary: $50,000 x 3 (Kondo, Minegishi, Ota) = $150,000
Orchestration and Arrangement (includes length and instruments): $3,000 - $5,000 per piece ($4,000 reasonable rough-cut average) = $432,000

Individual Musicianship Hire (totaling 40 - 50 members; detailing amount of themes to perform, how many rehearsals, and final performance) = $250,000 - $300,000 (for purpose, we'll compromise at $275,000)
Recording studio and mastering sessions (including a minimum of 2 weeks inside the studio, and a large size to fit the instruments and the performers) = $150,000 - $200,000 (for purpose, we'll compromise at $175,000)

Total estimate: $1,032,000

That's $1,032,000 as a rough estimation taking in all factors of production. And further yet, there are still over 65 themes unaccounted for which would still require full orchestration under some of the views here.

If the whole score was orchestrated, I'm telling you now that our new Zelda game wouldn't be available for a few years yet.

Again, orchestrating an entire Zelda score is just not realistic.

First off, all home console based Zelda games since Majora's Mask have had well over 100 tracks.  That's A LOT of music.  Even if you don't count the fanfares.

Secondly, and even more importantly, Kondo is a huge fan of DYNAMIC scores.  I just don't see this being done with an orchestra.  So bottom line, no matter how much you guys want it, it a'int gonna happen.  I prefer the MIDI and interactive music myself now.  Though, as XLord already pointed out, Zelda is well overdue for a synth upgrade (though TP has  the best synth we've had so far).

EDIT:  Besides, imagine Nintendo ever spending that type of money on an orchestra... or anything for that matter.  No way.

That rip helps... but it's amazing that we STILL haven't gotten a decent version of the Field Theme (the best part of the score).

While it's obvious we probably won't be getting fully orchestrated scores anytime soon, even incorporating a solo instrument into the synth does wonders for the music. Hamauzu figured that out years ago.

There's nothing that irritates me more than synth trying to imitate an orchestra. Most of the time, it sounds hopelessly bad (and very mechanical). It's desperately missing the phrasing that only human performers can provide.

(A million dollars for a film score would be nothing but I suppose with video games, it's asking a lot.)

I imagine in cases like FFXII (and in fact Zelda) it's not so much about budget as it is about power. Streaming music takes more memory than synthesizing it, not to mention the amount of disc space. For a game where each 'level' is loaded and it's pretty small this isn't an issue, but a game like FF you're constantly going back and forth, and the graphics are top notch in the first place.

-Joshua

Yeah, that's probably true... and FFXII's music was already downsampled to begin with. I suppose the more powerful the systems get, the less of an issue that will be.

I seriously doubt that financial considerations came into play when composing the score for tp... if nintendo wanted too, it could have easily plopped down the dough for an orchestrated score for their flagship game.

Why can't people see that it was a creative choice for nintendo to do the music this way?
Of all places on the internet, I cant understand why the 'give us an orchestrated score' mantra is in full force here as well. I loved the soundtrack and think the game would have been ruined by an orchestrated score and voice acting. Since when do the inhabitants of the mythical land of hyrule speak in english? (or some other 'real' language?) Im sorry, i guess im just too old school. Zelda is one of the few RPG series to survive the cinema-scene/voice acting/ orchestrated purge, and I applaud it for this.
I also enjoyed the samples for most... it provided continuity with Ocarina

When will people get it through there heads that VGM is not film music?

Who says they have to speak english? Why does Midna speak and nobody else? The game doesn't have to have an orchestra to sound better - simply better samples.

Had they used an 8-bit soundtrack to provide continuity with the original would you be happier?

Orchestrated music isn't exclusive to film scores.  The aim of the music in games and in films are very different, so there's no reason to think that using orchestrated music for games would make them more like film scores.

With that said, I think the soundtrack is good as is, but I think everyone would agree that it would sound better if it was orchestrated.  I think there are a lot of corners that could be cut in the price estimates listed above, but yeah, we're moving towards a time where all game music is either live or electronic, but not synthesized to emulate live music.  That's a good thing.

Live musicians, yes. Orchestra, no.