Yes, I definitely noticed the Star Wars feel, definitely in game play and slightly in the music.

Actually, while a few tracks did remind me of Star Wars, they did so in a good way.  One could do worse than to draw from Star Wars, and FFXII certainly isn't the first in the series to do so, though it may seem as similar to the prequels as it is to the original three, if just because it borrows the larger, societal perspective of those first three episodes.

The Sandsea track for example reminds me of The Dune Sea of Tatooine/Jawa Sandcrawler track from ANH (particularly at the beginning), but I thought that was cool.  It almost seems intentional.

The Garamscythe Waterway track also has a Star Wars feel, though I'm not exactly sure why.  It's a unique and enjoyable track either way.

Perhaps the problem with FFXII is that so many of the tracks are involved journeys in and of themselves.  I don't think the few recurring motifs were enough to tie them all together.  The result is a lot of good individual tracks but not a particularly cohesive score on the whole.  That's probably why it's difficult for me to decide how I feel about it.  I did feel however that the music was appropriate to the context, considering that the game itself plays more like a dungeon-crawler than a traditional Final Fantasy game.

Well, it's a big score. I can't think of one 4 CD score that remains cohesive (although FFXII probably comes the closest, thanks to sheer personality and the recurring themes/motifs). It's also not really a game that demands much from the music, being an extended fetch quest with little character development.

The only track that reminds me of Star Wars is the intro movie (but the intro movie itself looked like something ripped out of Episode I).

I thought FFIX had a fairly cohesive score.  The only problem is that many of the tracks themselves were bland and forgettable.  I suppose that the ideal is to have a soundtrack which is cohesive but also features a lot of standout tracks.  FFXII is at least consistent enough in terms of the musical quality for me to consider it a very good score.  I definitely don't understand the hate, though I can understand a little better the indifference, even if I think it's something that people should be able to get past.  As you say, the score has personality, and I find it quite likeable myself.

The only Final Fantasy soundtracks that I'd definitely put over FFXII are FFVI and FFT.  It seems clear to me that Sakimoto was trying to capture the spirit of Final Fantasy with his entry in the musical legacy of the series.  I think that for the most part, he succeeded.  Just that the game itself affords him fewer opportunities to do event-related music, especially towards the end.  And despite the 'fetch quest' labeling, I found FFXII the game to be one of my favorites in the series for its more realist cast and storyline in conjunction with one of the best realized worlds in the series.  I certainly found it more agreeable than the on-rails and trite experience that was FFX, the crazy mess that was FFVIII, or the uninspired mishmash of elements that was FFIX.

His work on Legaia Duel Saga was good, and Kirite was awexome, but the rest of his work over the past 3 years have been dreadfully unmemorable for me (Hako no Niwa, Moonlit Shadow, Armodyne, etc.)

You want Mitsuda on FF? Naoshi Mizuta on FFXI is what it would sound like for Mitsuda to compose for FF.

Sounds like SOMEONE didn't enjoy his work on FFX or Samurai Legend Musashi...so sad, that.

WHOA, the new age/folk style of Legend of Mana definitely wouldn't work for something as dark and sci-fi as FFXIII. Rather, I'm hoping for something more reminiscent of Parasite Eve, with a lot of orchestral and techno. I'm kind of hoping for something that sounds like a Vagrant Story composed by Shimomura.

It's going to take a number of listens before you get into it. At first, I too thought it was work, but it gets rewarding, especially when you hear gems like "Large Chapel" / "Great Cathedral" (Disc 2, Track 18).

Ummm... no. Mitsuda composing for FF would probably sound like a mix between Xenogears and Tsugunai. Mizuta and Mitsuda are two very different composers; they both like using acoustic instruments, but I'd draw the line there.

WELL, what I really meant to say is that a few of Mizuta's FFXI compositions reminded me of pieces from Chrono Cross. That's all.

Remember, Parasite Eve was Square's answer to Resident Evil.  That sort of mood doesn't translate entirely to Final Fantasy.  You might have one or two tracks like that, but it doesn't justify an entire score with a dark undertone for a game with so much going on.

We've seen one trailer for FFXIII and I dont' know how sci-fi it's going to be.

Wow... this is the first time I've posted here in eons.  And I've jumped into this thread for one reason and that alone:

Final Fantasy XII is the best soundtrack in the series thus far... bar none.  Thematic cohesiveness, gorgeous orchestration, complex harmonic/rhythmic ideas that only a music theorist can truly appreciate and understand...  This score has everything that I've come to love as a classically trained musician. 

Don't get me wrong, for I still love my Uematsu scores, but they're aren't cohesive in the least.  Sure, they have fine melodies for each character, location, and dramatic event, but FFXII finally proved what Uematsu had always been missing... musical training and formality.  Sakimoto understood how to weave the entire world of XII together in one giant thematic tapestry and did it with great bravura and exquisite beauty.

Sakimoto haters have always confused me, but XII haters confuse me even more.  I find absolutely everything to love about a score like this (the first great video game score to come out from a Japanese composer in the past half-decade... it's been a VGM world growing further and further out of ideas since I turned 20 it would seem).  I can only hope that time will do it justice and its brilliance will be realized one relisten at a time.

-Jockolantern

Just so you know, Sakimoto has no classical training and absolutely no classical knowledge whatsoever, so that makes it even more impressive.

He did play trumpet in his youth, didn't he?

Williams stole that particular piece from Stravinsky's "Rite of Spring". He didn't even bother changing the orchestration.

Well, there ya go...Music theorists and classically trained musicians can have themselves a ball! Mystery solved.

I'm curious why people are quick to say "best in the series!"...I mean, the name aside, there's no concrete relationship between these later FF scores (Uematsu's vocal theme aside) and what the series used to be. As is, there's simply no basis for comparison anymore...You might as well be comparing two completely unrelated series'.

You don't need to be a classically trained musician to write good music, but apparently you do have to be to use terms like "bravura". Your post was pretty funny, especially the part where you basically implied that you have to be a violin-playing snob with a thesaurus to fully appreciate FFXII's soundtrack. I know plenty of classically "untrained" people that enjoy the score on merits of their own, which makes it seem like you are belittling them for not being as learned as you.

Answer me this (preferrably without verbally masturbating): how is Final Fantasy XII a more cohesive whole than Final Fantasy VI? The only cohesive thing I found in FFXII's soundtrack is that it was a collective letdown; I felt that Sakimoto's "tapestry" was woven thin with quite a few dull colors and patterns, and after a few listens I started noticing plenty of rips and tears. I know I'm not alone when I say that many people (including myself) find FFVI to be the series' pinnacle, both in terms of working wonders in-game as well as being a satisfying thematic work; no other soundtrack (that I have heard) has captured the essence of the characters and the world of the game it accompanies than FFVI's.

<awaiting ensuing firestorm>

I just find it really curious how someone pops out of the woodwork to fap off about "harmonic/rhythmic ideas that only a music theorist can truly appreciate and understand", which reminds me of someone walking into a party and introducing themself and immediately saying, "Oh, by the way, I graduated from Harvard, Yale and Princeton. Where did you go to school?"

That post talked about how being "formal" and Sakimoto having "musical training" is what was "missing" from past Final Fantasy scores; ironically enough, Sakimoto isn't musically trained and is completely self-taught, making the whole basis for that post a big pile of fluff. For the record, I'm not trying to hate on Sakimoto for anything. That post just urked me and I'm curious to hear more about what is behind it.

*wince*

I have a degree in music and I certainly don't believe that classical training is necessary to understand Sakimoto's music (especially since he himself doesn't have any). You either enjoy the music or you don't. When I was in school, everyone was parading how wonderful Bach is but the composer bores me to tears. Yeah, his music has all this wonderful counterpoint in it and it's filled with lively Baroque melodies but who cares? It does nothing for me. Honestly, saying this makes you sound awfully elitist... and we already have enough of those in the classical world.

I do agree with you on FFXII (although I'd call it second-best in the series, after VI).

Yet another wordy discussion about personal opinions and tastes we apparently still needed, woohoo.

Hmm, I watched Fantasia a few weeks ago and I didn't notice.  I'll see if I can catch it next time.

Ouch.

Yay.

Would you put FFXII ahead of Final Fantasy Tactics as well, or were you just talking about the main series?

Yeah, I would. FFT hasn't aged well for me. Then again, I'm not a big Iwata fan.

I really ought to listen to this FFXII soundtrack, being a Sakimoto fan, and to see what all the fuss is about, be it positive or negative. Then again, I haven't played the game itself yet, so that explains that! Haha!

It is interesting, if anything, and you should check it out to see if you dig it. It definitely was much different than I expected, which kinda sucked for me. "This isn't the Sakimoto I remember".

I love the way Ramza polished off his review over at RPGFan (http://rpgfan.com/soundtracks/ff12/index.html).

I would just like to add that I thought the FFXII soundtrack was indeed a masterpiece *and* I thoroughly enjoyed it.

Everybody has opinions and they always differ.  There's no point in getting into stupid arguments over it.

-Mike

And I would just like to add I fully agree with Zane, but I didn't want to start a fire.

Most Sakimoto music leaves me totally indifferent, FFXII included but BoF V the only exception, and I resent the snob implication that that would have anything to do with me not being educated enough "to understand it".

To each his own of course, so please don't say stuff like that, cos it makes you sound more like an idiot than like a "sophisticated" person.

*returns to AHEM loudly at all the people he mistakenly accused of being a Jockolantern*

The FFXII soundtrack can be whatever you want to call it, but that doesn't mean it is enjoyable for me to listen to.  From what I gather from other people here, its sales number bear that out.  I'm absolutely sure Square Enix would rather have a simple Uematsu score that garners huge praise and sells big than a FFXII that only an elite few can "understand."  Quality and enjoyability are entirely subjective assessments that each person makes himself, and to laud a score based only on its technical adherence to antiquated European modes and rhythmic compositional structures flies in the face of what it means to be a fan of videogame music in the first place.  By that criteria, none of us should be listening to these new additions to the musical tapestry in the first place; game music introduces too many foreign elements, like science fiction, cinematography, and player interaction.

*strums a harp up and down a couple times and dubs it a masterpiece*

Oh yes, I also know why I've been waiting on getting it; is the sleek, jewel case version available yet, or are they still selling them in those damn DVD cases?!

LoLz. Just because it's music for a video-game doesn't mean it needs to be shallow.

Am I the only one totally confused by who actually likes and doesn't like this music here?

-Joshua

The first bars from "The Dune Sea of Tatooine" are exactly the same as the introduction for the second scene of "The Rite". There are other quotes in the same piece.

I remember reading in a thread somewhere that the LE was more plentiful than the "regular" version, and that the jewel case version is tough to find. I think someone in Japan (maybe Joe?) picked it up.

You know, if it wasn't the soundtrack to a Final Fantasy game, it wouldn't be the topic of all this controversy. 

Honestly, I wasn't expecting alot from the FFXII OST, but it's growing on me.  Almost exponentially.  Playing the game really helps because it forces you to listen to the music.  Most of you know that I've recently gotten into Sakimoto and this is the reason why.  Well done, especially considering he had some HUGE shoes to fill.

Let me being by saying I didn't intend for my remarks to come across as sounding "elitist."  My point was that I find it a much more enjoyable soundtrack than many people seem to because of how intricate and complex the ideas in the music are (making Sakimoto's lack of musical training all the more impressive; to innately understand musical harmonies like he does is a true gift) and the musical training I've been through has helped me to appreciate it more.  That doesn't mean that others can't and shouldn't enjoy it but a lot more enjoyment will come from it if you understand what's going on underneath the surface.  The same can be said for a piece of music like... The Rite of Spring, for example.  Many (not all) of my friends in the formally trained music world love it because of the complexities below the surface they never would have fully realized without in-depth harmonic/rhythmic/etc. studying.  That being said, I know non-music majors who enjoy it too, simply because it's their cup of tea, music-wise.  On the flip side, there are plenty of people who simply see it as Stravinsky using his own "compositional masturbation" to try and show off how "elitist" he was; I also know a handful of formally trained musicians who hate it... simply because they don't like the way it sounds.  They would prefer something like Bach or Mozart or Chopin... fine and dandy.

This post is most directed at Zane who decided to take my seemingly self-serving comments and get bent out of shape over them.  It is a hard game to try and type both sarcasm and sincerity over the internet and much of what I typed probably did come out as looking a bit pompous... for that I apologize and will try harder to convey my true intentions with even more flowery and masturbatory writing.   

I make no such assertion that you must be a highly-trained-elitist-violin-(my least favorite of the string family, I might add... so I guess I'm a "cello elitist")-playing-snob to enjoy the Final Fantasy XII soundtrack.  Uematsu himself has used many wonderfully complicated harmonic conventions (how's that for verbal masturbation?  ) throughout his career but the one thing he has always lacked is a sense of complete unity throughout his scores.  Again, fine and dandy... a soundtrack as great as Final Fantasy VI was made great by the fact that it decided to work more like a 3-hour musical suite rather than a 3-hour symphony (the former defined by loosely related ideas ala VI, the latter defined by closely related themes/motifs ala XII).  But, one man's definition of "defining a musical world" can be far different from another; the Lord of the Rings scores were and are the pinnacle of film scoring, in my opinion, because Shore decided to score everything in themes that are not only closely, closely related, but repeated and developed throughout the films.  Uematsu's definition of a musical world is to score each and every person, place, and event independently, thus creating a vast collage of musical ideas to form a bigger world.  Some like the former more (like myself, thus why I love the direction Sakimoto went with XII), others (like yourself, Zane) appreciate the latter approach.

There's no way a non-formally trained musician can appreciate the finer workings of a complicated score... just like it is absolutely impossible for a non-formally trained architect to appreciate the inner workings of a grand cathedral.  I don't mean to sound elitist, merely realistic.  I find it a shame that more people can't fully enjoy what makes the Final Fantasy XII soundtrack great but it's not my job to make sure that everyone appreciate all the kinds of music that I appreciate; with that kind of attitude, the colorful musical worlds of writers such as Uematsu wouldn't exists, and I'll be the first to say that would be a heinous crime.

So, Zane, nothing more was behind my post than being personally irritated with all the negativity surrounding the FFXII soundtrack simply because it wasn't Uematsu (if we're gonna' talk about the weak link in the Final Fantasy soundtrack chain, let's look no further than VII... but that's a different subject for a different post).  Simply because it abandoned the musical sensibilities of its predecessors.  Simply because you choose to dislike it... even having admitted it is "a marvel and a great achievement" (the one statement that has puzzled me the most about Ramza's otherwise clearcut review).

In the end, this all comes down to personal opinion.  One man's personal series pinnacle (VII for most people... at least in terms of the game) is another man's grinding stone (like me... and my personal great dislike of VII) and what I find so wonderfully cohesive about the XII soundtrack is in its use of repeated and variated themes/motifs.  Yet even between those, Sakimoto is able to weave additional color into the world's fabric by making each area of the game sound individualistic.  In the end, it all sounds like the music comes from a singular set of ideas (a single, stylistically united flower garden) as opposed to a musical world like VI where it sounds like every musical idea came from its own little world (a bunch of flowers from a bunch of different flower gardens).  Some like it more defined, some like it more abstract.  My tastes sway this way and that, but for now I've gotta' come down on Sakimoto's side who, as it has been mentioned in this post, had huge shoes to fill and managed to not only fill them but grant his only little twist on the shoelaces of the overall Final Fantasy musical framework... a world which is growing more and more diverse by the game.

Alrighty. I came across harsh in my response, but I understand that you didn't mean to be pompous about it now.

For the record, I didn't admit that the soundtrack was a "marvel and achievement", I was just quoting Ramza's review. The most important part of that phrase (to me, at least) is the last two sentences - basically that he recognizes the soundtrack as a large piece of work that may be impressive to others, but he chooses not to like it.

I know you didn't, that's why I put it in quote marks and referenced Ramza's review.  I understand full and well that is not your own opinion and thought I did a good job of conveying that contextually.  But here's my one and only question (and my own personal answer)... if one understands something to be marvelous and of great achivement... then why doesn't one like it?  Artistically speaking, I find 20th century architecture to be technically amazing and of high achievements... but I certainly don't like every piece of architecture I see (the Denver Arts museum is one I particularly find a bit... odd).

Why?

Simple... I don't understand what's going on beyond the surface and without a level of training and formality beyond what my eyes can see... than it just seems like nothing more than awkward and unconventional.  If I had a better understanding of how the structure operates, how it's linked together, how it's formed intergrally bit-by-bit, and how each piece works in tandem and counterpoint to the next... than I would probably like it.  Thus the musical argument...  Listening to Mahler's Sixth score is one thing, but digging into the printed score and being able to understand it makes it a whole new level of experience.  To modernize things (ala FFXII where no sheet music is avaliable), I've never seen a piece of sheet music for any work by Isang Yun, but listening to his music is certainly a difficult thing to do, even for a trained musician.  Without formal training, I understand how one's ears and mind can get lose amongst the seeming randomness of it all... just as my eyes get lost wandering across a piece of modern art or architecture.  I don't have the formal understanding to look for the patterns and clues that will lead me to the bigger theme of the picture or building.

With studying comes deeper understanding and I feel as though Sakimoto's work on Final Fantasy XII is not one which is meant to be instantly attainable and hummable as are Uematsu's works.  It is a larger piece of work meant to sink in with repeated listening and be understood with more and more time devoted to studying it.

As an aside, it's not ironic that Sakimoto has had no musical training... it merely reveals something even more incredible:  a gift.  I had to study for five years what Sakimoto was born with already understanding in detail.  That... is incredible.  Where Uematsu was born with a gift for melody (ala Mozart), Sakimoto was born with a gift for harmony (ala Mahler)... and if I've gotta' choose between the two, I'll personally take Mahler. 

-Jockolantern

I'm not convinced of that.  If a non-formally trained musician can create a complicated score, then I don't see why a non-formally trained musician or fan couldn't appreciate such a score.  Training serves to provide labels.  Listening is what allows those things to be recognized.  Even if I couldn't specifically say that this was performed by that instrument or that that was played according to some scale, I recognize the differences in the music.  Being a huge Sakimoto fan, I've learned to appreciate his style just by listening more closely to his music and taking notice of the nuances.  To learn how it works wouldn't change anything in terms of how I feel about the music except that I'd be able to better identify how he put together certain parts that I already like.

Honestly, I think that saying you need training to appreciate this or that is just a way to try and rationalize the fact that some people don't like it.  You can't prove it.  All you really need to appreciate music are your ears, heart, and mind.

I've heard that claim about stylistic unification before.  Someone once said it about Chrono Cross.  It seems to be a seperate distinction from the use of theme to tie a score together.  In terms of specific and important themes, it's only the main theme that is featured fairly often, followed by the Empire Theme.  I do hear a few small passages that repeat once or twice, however.  State of Emergency for example has the motif from The Dalmasca Estersand.  I know I heard the final part of The Salikawood in another track as well.  Are those little bits the parts you're talking about?

I still think that despite the interweaving of themes here and there, the dungeon/area/town tracks dominate the score, and they tend to be rather self-contained in terms of function.  So while they might be stylistically united, I don't feel like the score is especially united in a thematic or contextual sense.  I don't think that the inclusion of standard Final Fantasy series themes helps either, as they aren't featured elsewhere, and Uematsu's style is different from Sakimoto's.

I agree, but I still don't think that formal training necessarily factors in.  It just takes more time to digest a more complex work.  I've gotten used to the idea that Sakimoto's music is often designed to reveal more of itself over repeated listens.  It doesn't always have the quick hook that Uematsu or Mitsuda stuff has.  That doesn't make it better or worse though.  I personally like it, but some people don't.  Whether or not they're listening closely enough is something you can't possibly know, and while you can suggest that they spend more time with it, there are no guarantees.  In the end, what is technically impressive doesn't always make for the most inspiring music, nor is it always the point.

There's the theme for the Resistance as well. The Empire theme in particular is versatile. There's at least three sections of the piece that Sakimoto has no problem with separating... and there's a rhythmic motif as well that gets tossed around.

The main theme is EVERYWHERE and it is often cleverly hidden. Obviously, the tracks that Sakimoto didn't write don't apply (and I actually wish he had written the entire thing. Iwata's tracks are pretty good but I always skip Matsuo's work).

On a random note, I listened to Mahler's Eighth the other day (again). Musical perfection, as far as I'm concerned.