Is there any word of any arranged/piano/anything FF12 albums coming?  I can't recall a recent FF title that's received so little music releases, which is quite sad as the FF12 score ranks as the best FF score for me and certainly many others with an informed classical music ear.

I hope you're prepared for all possible reactions to that little barb at the end.

FFXII has one of my favorite FF scores as well and it'd be nice to have a few arranged albums or something.  Unfortunately, I don't think it has been well received by most Final Fantasy music fans.  I can only speculate as to why, since many people simply describe the music as unmemorable, which I think is a difficult quality to gauge.  I obviously find it memorable enough, and I think many of the tracks feature enjoyable developments, but it didn't take for some folks.  If there's one negative it's that the sheer amount of music makes it feel like there's some filler to sift through, but I think that's a negative for pretty much every four disc score I've heard.  Sometimes I feel like soundtracks shouldn't span more than two discs worth of material for the sake of cohesiveness.  Also, I think that the first and third discs are noticeably stronger than the second and the last, which makes for a few lulls here and there.

I'm going to keep my opinions to FFXII to a very concise "ehhhh", but...

... I very much agree with that. I can't think of a single 4 CD OST that isn't littered with filler in one way or another. A lot of 3 CD OSTs are filler-full, as well.

I'm a longtime Sakimoto buff, so my love of FFXII shouldn't be a surprise. However, if we are talking about filler tracks, why not talk filler discs - disc 2 of the OST is definitely my least played. Still some good tracks, but disc 3 is so packed full of awesome that it just leaves it in the dust.

That said, what Sakimoto-related albums have gotten arrange albums? FFT Advance? Bleh. Here's hoping for a FFXII Battle album that will only happen in my wildest erotic fantasies. Truth be told, as long as I get some kind of arrangement of the Boss Battle theme, I'd be on cloud nine.

When I hear the word "memorability", I think of short tunes that are repeated over and over again. That's the secret of popular music (and even looping in VGM). It's not the melodies that endear, it's the fact that endless repetition would make anything stick. A lot of people aren't interested in more complicated music with thematic and harmonic development. I personally tend to find melody the least interesting part of music but your tastes may vary.

(And I love FFXII... but I've made that very clear in the past. )

Erm...no. I'm staying out of discussing FFXII (in the interest of positive thought flow in this thread), but I respectfully disagree with this statement. What about, say, a guitar solo then, which will normally appear only once in a song and is often one of the most notable aspects of a song? And the endless repetition thing is a double-edged sword...Something that sounds great will stick better, but something that sounds awful or dull will just grate and annoy all the more (or will simply remain awful or dull).

I agree this is true for some popular music and game music, but I hardly think it's the "secret" to them or the key to being "memorable".

Awww...

Yeah, I was generalizing. There are always exceptions, of course. Plus what I find memorable, other people find boring (and vice versa).

I'm one of those that wasn't terribly impressed with FFXII's soundtrack, but it was only partially due to the work of the much overrated Sakimoto (oh let the flames burn HIGH!).

The mess of directors that ultimately gave the game its direction are also responsible for developing its story and characters, both in the plotline and musical department.  They need to ask more of their composers than just "Here is what's going on, write something for it."  If they want to have strong characters and memorable themes for them, their locales, or major events in the story (think back to FFVII for a good example of this; how many events in that game, from the opening train sequence to Aeris' death to the Midgar fight with the Weapons had music that stood out?), they need to demand it of their composers.  The fact is they adequately developed neither the characters nor their attendant musical themes, and the game was a generic mess for it, not only in the music.

And on a side note, I always hate it when aural snobs hold up Sakimoto as this pinnacle of game music achievement and take every opportunity to take composers like Uematsu and anyone who enjoys their "simple, pedantic melodies" down a peg.  I have to assume it makes them feel better about themselves.  I don't enjoy much of Sakimoto's work (Vagrant Story wasn't bad, but Sakimoto only gets half the credit for that), but I recognize that's just a difference in taste.  I certainly don't try to lash out at people who DO like it; I just think it wasn't a good fit for the FF series.

Realize your hostile and slanderous distortion of the image of Sakimoto fans as if they were always arrogant and attacked other composers/thier fans is no less akin to looking down on others. In addition, from a very objective perspective, I've felt it's Sakimoto naysayers, like you, who often take the initiative in being offensive, negative and unconstructive in VGM communities in general, though?

Speaking of the topic, considering its widely infamous reputation and poor sales (a third of FFX-2) an arranged album is very unlikely. On an arrangement side of things, a piano or rock album doesn't sound good either. Maybe I will be intrigued by a live orchestra performance, though.

In the meantime, while waiting around for any Official Arranged albums for FF XII to be announced, you could go for the FF XII -Over the Sky- Arrange album by the Dojin group Magical Trick Society.

http://magicaltrick.com/ff12.html

I couldn't agree more with the 4 discs = filler and 2 discs = gold.  Case in point:  Baten Kaitos vs. Trusty Bell.

Before FFXII, I didn't listen to Sakimoto at all.  AT ALL.  But, it was Final Fantasy, so it deserved a listen.  There are a few memorable tracks, but you really have to work at it.  Eventually, they get under your skin and you want to hear more.  So, my mind is opening up to him but I haven't heard anything as moving as some of the pieces from Legaia Duel Saga or Breath of Fire V. 

To everyone who has recommended Vagrant Story, I'm sorry.  I just don't get it.

I never meant to claim that all Sakimoto fans are snobs like that -- my very good friend Amber is a huge fan and I've never heard her do what I am talking about.  And I strongly disagree that it's "Sakimoto naysayers" that are any more offensive, negative or unconstructive.  Uematsu certainly has more than his fair share of popularity with the "masses" of videogame fans, and that probably brings with it a greater than average amount of "FF MUSIK R0X U SUCK DUDE LOLOL!"

My greater point was that you can enjoy a composer perfectly well without turning it around and throwing fans of OTHER composers you enjoy less under the bus.  If saying that "people who are being negative should stop being negative" is myself being negative, then I don't know what else I can say.

Sad, but true...I actually miss the Uematsu fanboys. I don't see too many of them nowadays.

Hey, Cedille, mind revealing your secret identity on the other VGM boards I frequent, like I asked a month ago? Or do you just lurk and troll when the timing's good? God forbid I crack something on Sakimoto in jest (not even regarding his music) without getting a pile of crap like this:

"Don't mind. He is indeed the biggest Sakimoto fan, since everytime I read his post, he talks about Sakimoto.  I remember reading his "Sakimoto generally sucks except for BoF 5 and some of blah blah blah" statement dozens of times in every VGM forum, and we'll end up reading hundreds of it *shudder*"

http://www.altpop.com/stc/forums/viewtopic.php?id=2549

I pay Sakimoto about as much mind as I do the entire hip hop industry, save for Gradius V, where I don't have a choice in the matter when I play, and his status as a VGM composer...Without that distinction, he's not even worth starting a conversation over. Go ahead and find these "dozens" of posts I've made. Please...By all means...Post the date and forum as well. Try and stay recent too...Going back more than a year or two isn't making much of an argument.

I don't really agree with Sephiro's comment either, because it seems for every Sakimoto fanboy, there's another person who finds his music dull and lifeless. I say let the kids and their "classically trained ears" have their fun. I just wish some other VGM composers other than Sakuraba would make themselves as visible as Sakimoto has over the last couple years...It does seem like the fucker's everywhere right now (or at least him and his Basicscape boys).

And what about Mitsuda!  Sweet little Mitsuda!

I went to his site's discography, and while I'm not about to look down on music I haven't heard, his total works since XENOSAGA Episode I are Armodyne, Luminous Arc, Rogue Galaxy, Moonlit Shadow, and Hako no Niwa.  Why aren't game developers banging down his door to compose for some big hits??

Not commenting again on the whole Sakimoto thing, but could you just imagine a Final Fantasy game with Mitsuda composing?  Instead we get frickin' Hamauzu for XIII.  At least Shimomura will do Versus XIII, but does that mean it'll just be another circus from the Kingdom Hearts team?

Hamauzu is a fantastic composer man, can't see what you don't like about his work.
Later,

Alcahest

I'm going to pretend like I didn't hear that.  HOPEfully FFXIII verus sounds a little more like Legend of Mana and a little less like Kingdom Hearts.

What were the sales numbers for the soundtrack?  Moreover, anyone have a link to the albums sales of the Final Fantasy albums?  Thank you.

Give it some time.  I used to prefer BoFV over all other Sakimoto soundtracks but in time I grew to appreciate Vagrant Story more and more to the point that it became my second favorite VGM score.  I'm not saying that the same will be true of everyone, but what I do believe is that Vagrant Story is more complex and less immediately accessible versus BoFV, and so it takes a bit longer to notice everything that's going on in the music.  At first I felt like the complexities served only to obscure the dramatic impact of the music but eventually I came to feel that they added to it.  Also, it would be very helpful to play through the game if you haven't done so already, because Vagrant Story is one of the tightest scores in terms of the music working with and enhancing the context of the game experience.  Some people don't particularly care for the context when assessing the impact that music has on them, but I've always felt that many of the best game and movie scores are the ones which do capture and enhance the context so as to form a special whole.  That's why although Super Castlevania IV is deemed too ambient by some folks to be a favorite, it rocks my socks with its cool rhythms, great use of percussion, creative and enjoyable track development, and the way that it fits the context of the game like a glove.  It also maintains a very classical feel amidst the dark and earthy ambience, which is great for my tastes, and quite appropriate for Castlevania.  It often integrates some catchy melodies too, like Simon's Theme, which is still a standout for the entire series.  Vagrant Story is essentially the same way, just more complex, and with more interweaving of themes throughout various tracks.

Hey, GoldfishX...you were wondering about where all the Uematsu fanboys went, right?  There's your answer.

Oh, I agree entirely.  Whether it has to do with the projects Squeenix gives her or something with the melodies in her head, I think she's been on a gradual downhill slide since Parasite Eve... decent stuff with that and Super Mario RPG... then Legend of Mana... then Kingdom Hearts, and it all becomes sludge.

Please... so now enjoying a composer makes me a fanboy?  Would I have been better to have said his works generally "rock my socks," or expound on how he maintains a "classical feel amidst the dark and earthy ambience?"

Hey Cedille, I think I just found the type of person I was talking about!

Whoa, I just knew you had asked such... okay, for the sake of this thread, I'll send you a message instead. 

I've not tracked the chart seriously, but it was less than 30,000 the last time.This thread may help you.

Nah, go ahead...You can do it here. I haven't posted anything anywhere I don't want people to see.

Remember: Dates and forums. And please provide proper context for the "dozens" you find as well, so people can follow along.

Er... what's going on?

I couldn't resist.  It's just very common for a Uematsu fan to enjoy Mitsuda as an alternative.  So common that before you ever posted what you did I was going to mention that most Uematsu fans accept Mitsuda before anyone else as an agreeable alternative, and that most Uematsu fans probably converted into Mitsuda fans, which would explain the lack of Uematsu fans these days.  Instead I took a while with my response and found a few new ones when I did a preview.  Don't take it personally or anything.  You gushed and I took advantage to make my point.  I didn't intend to hurt you or anything.  I was just a bit reckless for the sake of humor.

Don't be so presumptuous and paranoid.  You know little of what I like or dislike.  I never attacked you just because you aren't overly enthusiastic about Sakimoto.  GoldfishX doesn't like Sakimoto but I respect his opinions just the same.  I've posted with him on various forums long enough to know his tastes and that he has his own reasons for liking and disliking various VGM.  Reasons that definitely have nothing to do with inexperience or closed-mindedness.  You I'm not sure about, as you seem a bit fearful and rash, what with the mocking and labeling.

So there's no confusion, I don't have any ill feelings towards you.  I don't even know you beyond what you've posted in this thread.  I would hope that you'd extend me the same benefit of doubt.  We're all VGM fans here, right?  Since we both took cheap jabs at each other, let's agree to make peace.  Besides, if you knew all my favorite soundtracks, I doubt you'd judge me as elitist just because of my reasoning for favoring Vagrant Story or CV4.  I enjoy many different game soundtracks for many different reasons.

You're absolutely right, and I apologize for getting so hot headed there.  I think I was just having a bad day.

But to follow up on what you said, why do you think it is that Uematsu fans gravitate so easily to Mitsuda?  Could it have more to do with just quality of composition than some deeper music theory aspect?  Uematsu's work has been certainly less memorable (and arguably of lower quality) in the past few years, while Mitsuda has a good number of more recent, highly praised successes under his belt.

On a side note with regard to your comments about CV4, I've been finding myself moving away from a lot of the older game music I once enjoyed.  Part of me likes to think my tastes have become more sophisticated vis a vis my maturing into adulthood, but I'm not entirely willing to give myself that much credit (and not like my comments so far in this thread have born that out!).  I found myself agreeing quite a bit with a recent editorial, When Nostalgia Becomes a Bad Word, and I think there's something to be said for his point as it applies to game music as well --  today’s game music has advanced both in technological and compositional complexity, and our tastes have been pushed forward right along with it.

I don't think it's quality of composition, but it's probably tough to pin down.  I have my own ideas that I wouldn't mind sharing though.  I think the gravitation has something to do with how Mitsuda's style began as something of a spinoff of Uematsu's.  It all started with Chrono Trigger, which Uematsu actually contributed eight or nine tracks to.  The difference over the years since then is that Mitsuda has been able to develop his style into something which takes advantage of better sound technology whereas Uematsu has not.  Even so, I personally prefer Uematsu's style, and I think his pinnacle was better than Mitsuda's.  Just that Mitsuda has managed to find ways to keep his music colorful whereas Uematsu has had more trouble with that.  Compositionally I have always favored Uematsu, but Mitsuda uses sounds better, and that translates to something which always seems more fresh when compared to Uematsu's similar sounding music.

That's even though I think that Mitsuda has essentially been recycling his Chrono Cross style since that particular score.  Every composer finds a certain style and then they stick with it.  Just that Mitsuda has been better able to mask his similar compositions through sound than composers like Sakimoto and Sakuraba.  The proof is in how ever since Sakuraba went for improved instrumentation in stuff like Baiten Kaitos, some people suddenly took a liking to it.  Truth is, his compositional style hasn't changed.  Only the colors of his paint brush, as it were.  The same goes for Sakimoto's stuff in Legaia Duel Saga and Breath of Fire V.  It's interesting how more varied and particular sound samples can make all the difference for some folks.  Not that sound quality and varied instrumentation isn't important, but for me it has never been the defining element of what makes music special, perhaps partly due to the fact that I did enjoy VGM tunes in their more basic forms while growing up.  I just want the music to make the most out of what it's using and be enjoyable for it.

Indeed, your comments haven't born that out, as I believe you mentioned the effectiveness of the music in Final Fantasy VII and yet that music is also dated in some respects.  In that one can begin to figure out the essence of great music.  I personally don't buy into the 'nostalgia clouds judgment' argument and I never will.  I think great music is great music regardless of the limitations and the time period.  For me, good composition is not necessarily a measure of complexity.  I can listen to something from Mega Man 2 and enjoy it just as I would something from FFXII.  If there's depth to be had in complexity, then there's beauty to be had in simplicity, and all things balance out to where I enjoy great stuff from any era and don't think of one thing as inferior to another based on notions of how something has to be.  And so, although I agree that tastes do diversify in part due to technological advances, the inspired excellence of a true classic does not change, as classic by definition means something which can never be surpassed.  For a game score, the value of the music is defined by what it adds to the experience, and not by how many things went into the creation of that music.  That's why you can have music which makes use of all the bells and whistles of today and yet fails to leave a strong impression.  Inspiration is not defined by technology or by complexity.  Only by creativity and power of expression, whether it happens through chiptunes or a full blown orchestra.

*clap clap clap* congrats for absolutely derailing this original topic.

This is the ONLY thing I'm going to say about the topic, then I'll let it go:

Every Final Fantasy since Final Fantasy IV, including FFX-2 (and now FFXI) has had a Piano Collection released. I love these albums. Problem is, transferring Sakimoto to piano-only is *not* easy, and it's especially difficult for the music he made for FFXII. I'm sure *everyone* can agree with me on this point.

...That doesn't stop me from wanting FFXII Piano.

Ramza

I don't know if you've been around enough to notice, but most Final Fantasy XII topics wind up revolving around opinions on the score *and game* regardless of the original intentions.  In this case, the topic creator himself incited such an occurence with what he said about having an informed classical music ear, and so I'm not surprised that the topic deviated from asking about arrangements to discussion of the original score, Sakimoto, and then VGM in general.  I think it has remained fairly civilized, all things considered, and if nothing else is more interesting than just saying yes or no to arranged albums for FFXII.  There's obviously no news on forthcoming arrange albums, and so that aspect of the topic had nowhere to go.

Good call, Ramza, I never really chimed in on the arranged album question, and I think my opinion will come as a surprise to no one.

I'll listen to one if it comes out, but I'm neither expecting it (based on what Cedille said about sales numbers) nor really looking forward to it.  Maybe Square can just get someone to glissando harp up and down for an hour and call it an arrangement.

[[Okay, Megavolt, you're right, I'm the one being negative here ;-) ]]

Ha! Yeah, Sakimoto certainly likes his harp glissandi. I wouldn't mind seeing an FFXII piano but the music would need to be arranged VERY well (like FFX piano).

This, I believe, is the main reason why I do not like FF12's music...

It has to do with the instrument samples.  For some reason its that they imitate real instruments too well, yet they miss the mark to sounding real. Because of this, they give an odd effect that I do not like. It's hard to explain, honestly, I wonder if anyone else thinks this (and if they do can explain it better).

It's like, the tracks were supposed to use real instruments, but since it was synth, failed to do so, and thus they lacked. (if that makes sense?) Whereas other games it was obviously synth tracks.     I think if the FF12 soundtrack had used a full orchestra, would be the only way it would have sounded proper.

Jesus Bless,
~Andy

I know exactly what you mean, and feel the same way. FFXII's music just sounds like it NEEDS real instruments, when even other Sakimoto works like FFT and Silvergun which both try to imitate the orchestra don't really feel that way to me. It's still an enjoyable listen, but it seems like that extra step would have made it from "pretty good, worth buying" to "fantastic, why haven't you bought this?!"

Of course, they probably needed to keep the music synth over streaming for technical reasons. Sigh.

-Joshua

I don't see why, plenty of other games have been using live instruments for the full soundtrack, it's just that the FF series seems reluctant to move on.
And I had such high hopes after the awesome SNES music they always made...

Eh. Of all the possible examples of that kind you could make you choose the one where the 4 discs title is actually far more cohesive than the 2 discs one?

As for the possibility of FF12 (and its music reusing DS off shot) getting an arranged album of some kind down the line, it's still plenty high compared to any other major game not by Square-Enix (or Falcom, the only other game manufacturer rather consistent with its soundtrack/arrangement releases). Maybe, just maybe, Sakimoto gets to do a solo album for Square-Enix like Hamauzu did? In any case Sakimoto reportedly got the Romeo X Juliet work due to the anime's producer having listened to FF12's music, so FF12 did its job well for all I care.

Uncanny!

Ok, I said I wouldn't return, but I'm back.

You know what FFXII reminded me of? ESPECIALLY when playing the game...

Star Wars Episodes I~III

Y'know how everyone made a big deal about John Williams using a synth trumpet in "Duel of the Fates" because the notes he wanted were so high that no real trumpeter could hit them? Yeah...after that, Williams used a few more synth instruments integrated with the real deal. It was sort of ethereal, and it often gave me a headache.

Seriously though, play a little bit of FFXII then go watch Episode I. I think the music will stand out to you ... in a bad way ... as others have described.

Ramza